I think this alternate universe is screwed (spoilers)

[FailedLurker]

I think the Whale Probe is gonna fuck us over. Just think of what needed to happen in order for the Enterprise crew to save the day!

Kirk had to maroon Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Years later, Chekov had to rediscover Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Khan had to steal the Genesis device. Spock had to die. Spock had to be reborn on the Genesis planet. Commander Kruge had to try and steal Genesis. Kirk had to blow up the Enterprise and steal a Bird of Prey. They had to take the Bird of Prey all the way to Vulcan (which doesn't EXIST ANYMORE!). Then they had to fly home to Earth, only to be stopped on their way and figure out that the transmission from the Probe was the sound of humpback whales.

That Probe will destroy us all.

Technically, all that's strictly necessary to save Earth from the probe is two things: that the Enterprise is away from Earth, but not too far away - close enough to get there quickly, but not so close that they are disabled; and that they know about the slingshot effect. Personally, I think the second is in more peril than the first.

 

[roguephoenix]

We've seen in the original timeline that the Federation just barely fights off some of its biggest rivals. But with Vulcan destroyed in the alternate timeline, you've got to be believe that the Federation is significantly weaker. Vulcan was one of the most important members in the Federation and the most technologically advanced prior to its founding. (Think NATO without the US or UK).

Even if the Federation isn't overrun by the Klingons or Romulans. What chance are they going to have against the Borg, or the Dominion?

I just think its kinda ironic to save Earth from Nero, but that it will probably end up getting assimilated one day.

If I was Spock prime, knowing what I know about the Federation's future conflicts, I'd start working on a way to get back to my own universe. Or I'd tell the alternate Enterprise crew to start looking for that reset button!

um... you don't really think that vacum will remain unfilled do you? there are a lot of races in the federation. maybe some of the races that were never originally in the federation will be more inclined to join. there are so many possibilities as they are not so limited in their members like we are because we're limited to our world. who knows? maybe this will have adverse effects on how the federation deals with klingons, romulans, etc. who knows if any of these races will step up and fill the void. who knows if any of the existing federation races will step up? no one knows, but what is sure is that a vacum will always want to be filled if there is something around to fill it.

 

[Captain_Rogers]

I gotta admit it's pretty funny reading all the doom and gloom scenarios as if Vulcan alone was the sole thing holding the federation up from collapse.

I guess the haters need to cling onto some form of desperate hope for failure.

First off, there are Vulcan colonies, Vulcan ships, Vulcan scientists, Memory Alpha etc. that still exist. While a severe blow, Vulcan's destruction isn't realistically enough to collapse the federation. One world out of what...150 or more? Sorry.

At the very least, the Federation would likely allocate a higher percentage of their annual budget to Military operations and spending and increased border defense initiatives.

And sorry, but humans were a pretty inventive lot, they managed to achieve quite a bit without any help from Vulcans at all.

I'm pretty sure the Federation will manage to stuggle through just fine. While it will be a great personal loss, just like 9/11 was to the USA, the Federation will stand strong.

Regardless, Vulcan's aren't extinct. It's not like they aren't still part of the Federation. They can rebuild.

 

[Feofilakt]

We've seen in the original timeline that the Federation just barely fights off some of its biggest rivals. But with Vulcan destroyed in the alternate timeline, you've got to be believe that the Federation is significantly weaker. Vulcan was one of the most important members in the Federation and the most technologically advanced prior to its founding. (Think NATO without the US or UK).

Even if the Federation isn't overrun by the Klingons or Romulans. What chance are they going to have against the Borg, or the Dominion?

I just think its kinda ironic to save Earth from Nero, but that it will probably end up getting assimilated one day.

If I was Spock prime, knowing what I know about the Federation's future conflicts, I'd start working on a way to get back to my own universe. Or I'd tell the alternate Enterprise crew to start looking for that reset button!

um... you don't really think that vacum will remain unfilled do you? there are a lot of races in the federation. maybe some of the races that were never originally in the federation will be more inclined to join. there are so many possibilities as they are not so limited in their members like we are because we're limited to our world. who knows? maybe this will have adverse effects on how the federation deals with klingons, romulans, etc. who knows if any of these races will step up and fill the void. who knows if any of the existing federation races will step up? no one knows, but what is sure is that a vacum will always want to be filled if there is something around to fill it.

You are the head of a village near the frontier of a large state. Some of your neighbors want to join the state, some don't. The state has certain guidelines for joining, all of which you meet. But you hear of news that a single band of brigands led by a particularly nasty brigand not only crushed an army of theirs, but burned one of the most important cities in the state plain as day. Mind you, these are not the actions of an organized state but a very small group of people. Would you be more or less likely to join what would appear to be a completely inept state? I'll tell you what the historical choice has been: Stay out and make do, or start forming other alliances, because the guys over the frontier are a bunch of morons.

NOBODY wants to side with a loser, no matter how nice they are. The fact the brigands were defeated would be a small consolation, because if the hypothetical threat can't handle small groups of brigands burning down their most important cities, what -can- they handle?

This is a late era Rome event, guy. Bad, bad news for the feds.

What is far more likely than siding with the state that got brutalized, would be siding with emboldened states that have an axe to grind. When people smell blood they go for the kill, and in tandem with the inevitable devastation (in a political sense) this would cause it is a combination most lethal.

That is, of course, if we were dealing with a realist like Herbert or George R.R. Martin, among others. Abrams will likely send in the razzle dazzle team to patch it up in way that is as equally silly as it is improbable

Or the member states and foreign political entities will be a bunch of idiots...

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

We've seen in the original timeline that the Federation just barely fights off some of its biggest rivals. But with Vulcan destroyed in the alternate timeline, you've got to be believe that the Federation is significantly weaker. Vulcan was one of the most important members in the Federation and the most technologically advanced prior to its founding. (Think NATO without the US or UK).

Even if the Federation isn't overrun by the Klingons or Romulans. What chance are they going to have against the Borg, or the Dominion?

I just think its kinda ironic to save Earth from Nero, but that it will probably end up getting assimilated one day.

If I was Spock prime, knowing what I know about the Federation's future conflicts, I'd start working on a way to get back to my own universe. Or I'd tell the alternate Enterprise crew to start looking for that reset button!

lol Good point. Granted we didn't see the Vulcans help out much in the battle of Wolf 359..

If I'm understanding this movie correctly, we're not dealing with just an alternate time line. It's another universe all together. Like Mirror Mirror, but not cool.

So in this alternate universe / reality... anything can be different, even if it's not directly related to the time travel incident and the Kelvin being destroyed. The Borg don't necessarily exist. The past could be different too. I mean it would have to be, since "Admiral Archer" would otherwise have been 140 years old when Scotty beamed his dog into oblivion.

Like the Eugenics wars in the 1990s or the interplanetary sleeper ship Khan and other Augments escape Earth with in 1996 in the Prime Trek universe.

 

[Feofilakt]

I gotta admit it's pretty funny reading all the doom and gloom scenarios as if Vulcan alone was the sole thing holding the federation up from collapse.

I guess the haters need to cling onto some form of desperate hope for failure.

First off, there are Vulcan colonies, Vulcan ships, Vulcan scientists, Memory Alpha etc. that still exist. While a severe blow, Vulcan's destruction isn't realistically enough to collapse the federation. One world out of what...150 or more? Sorry.

At the very least, the Federation would likely allocate a higher percentage of their annual budget to Military operations and spending and increased border defense initiatives.

And sorry, but humans were a pretty inventive lot, they managed to achieve quite a bit without any help from Vulcans at all.

I'm pretty sure the Federation will manage to stuggle through just fine. While it will be a great personal loss, just like 9/11 was to the USA, the Federation will stand strong.

Regardless, Vulcan's aren't extinct. It's not like they aren't still part of the Federation. They can rebuild.

Several problems with your post... where do I start?

I gotta admit it's pretty funny reading all the doom and gloom scenarios as if Vulcan alone was the sole thing holding the federation up from collapse.

Vulcan was not the entity holding the Federation up, but a keystone member and a center of radiation of ideas that was and is critical to the federation at this point in their growth. Nations can survive great setbacks, but losing your intellectual core is not one of them.

I guess the haters need to cling onto some form of desperate hope for failure.

Irrelevant to the discussion. I am presenting events as they have happened historically, no malice towards the future of the movies.

First off, there are Vulcan colonies, Vulcan ships, Vulcan scientists, Memory Alpha etc. that still exist. While a severe blow, Vulcan's destruction isn't realistically enough to collapse the federation. One world out of what...150 or more? Sorry.

Not... really. Working from the evidence we have, not useless conjecture, there are ten thousand Vulcans left. Perhaps more will be revealed in time but at this moment we only have evidence to state with certainty the existence of ten thousand. Also, Vulcan was no normal city. It was the Athens of the Federation, and arguably one of the most important in terms of the generation of foundational ideas which all nations need to survive and maintain cohesion. It will not collapse the Federation in the short term, I never stated that, but it will hobble it.

At the very least, the Federation would likely allocate a higher percentage of their annual budget to Military operations and spending and increased border defense initiatives.

Who is going to man the vessels and supply the resources if the member states get nervous? I am not sure you understand the severity of this, but I will explain later.

And sorry, but humans were a pretty inventive lot, they managed to achieve quite a bit without any help from Vulcans at all.

Foundational member, radiating center of ideas, contributer to ideas that make the Federation what it is. They are in bad shape. Want to know how bad it is? Google Arnold J. Toynbee and the radiating culture theory, or if you are brave, go to your library and take out volume I of his work "A study of history". It is an eye-opening experience, to be sure, and demonstrates how fragile civilizations are at certain points in their development and how ideas are the lifeblood of civilization. Some of the later volumes go into some depth about the nature of cultural degeneration and the death of ideas and civilization, but volume I is a good start.

I'm pretty sure the Federation will manage to stuggle through just fine. While it will be a great personal loss, just like 9/11 was to the USA, the Federation will stand strong.

No disrespect to those who died during those attacks or the families/friends of people who died, but 9/11 is simply not comparable to the destruction of a planet, which would be the rough equivelant to the destruction of a city or small region in our modern terms. Losing Vulcan at this point of development would be akin to losing Boston shortly after the American War of Indendence, Athens in the 5th century BC, large portions of Rome after the unification of the peninsula, Rome during the early medieval era, Pella or Larissa during Philip II's reign... etc etc. Losing important locations that are the home of important ideas is a crippling experience, I cannot stress this enough. A new center of ideas always rises up, but it usually changes location and not in the previous owner's favor.

And remember, just because you can survive an experience doesn't mean you will flourish. The Federation of TNG was flourishing, I doubt that future is possible now, at least in a realistic sense (the writers can force anything).

Regardless, Vulcan's aren't extinct. It's not like they aren't still part of the Federation. They can rebuild.

Evidence points to them being almost extinct. With those kind of numbers (in comparison to everyone else) they are strong candidates for the walking dead, speaking in terms of natural selection. As for their ideas? Unlikely. I know this is a heavy handed attempt to paint them as the Hebrews, but being friends with a scholar regarding the early Jewish people I have had numerous discussions with this person regarding their transformation into what they were after the Jewish Revolts, they sure ain't Jews. Experiences were totally different, emphasis was totally different. There is no comparison and therefore no similar outcome.

 

[Samurai8472]

In this alternate timeline, Vger will approach Earth in search of its creator . . . and fall into the black hole that swallowed the Narada. Earth is saved!

A decade and a bit later, the Probe will approach Earth in search of whales . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

Eventually, someone at Starfleet Command will go "Hmm! I think we might be onto something here . . . "

Almost a century later, a Borg cube will approach Earth to assimilate its population. It will find a giant sign in space proclaiming "WARNING: CONSTRUCTION AHEAD. PLEASE FOLLOW ALTERNATE ROUTE." Being the law-abiding chaps that they are, the Borg will take the recommended diversion . . . and fall into the black hole. Earth is saved!

And interestingly enough not a bad idea.

Black holes, the cause of and solution to any problem

 

[Robert DeSoto]

I gotta admit it's pretty funny reading all the doom and gloom scenarios as if Vulcan alone was the sole thing holding the federation up from collapse.

I guess the haters need to cling onto some form of desperate hope for failure.

First off, there are Vulcan colonies, Vulcan ships, Vulcan scientists, Memory Alpha etc. that still exist. While a severe blow, Vulcan's destruction isn't realistically enough to collapse the federation. One world out of what...150 or more? Sorry.

At the very least, the Federation would likely allocate a higher percentage of their annual budget to Military operations and spending and increased border defense initiatives.

And sorry, but humans were a pretty inventive lot, they managed to achieve quite a bit without any help from Vulcans at all.

I'm pretty sure the Federation will manage to stuggle through just fine. While it will be a great personal loss, just like 9/11 was to the USA, the Federation will stand strong.

Regardless, Vulcan's aren't extinct. It's not like they aren't still part of the Federation. They can rebuild.

I'm a hater just cuz I'm discussing possible doomsday scenerios?? I'm doing this for fun. Debating what if scenerios in a FICTIONAL universe, prime or alternate. I got better things to do than hate on JJ Abrams, Paramount, or cocky Trekbbs posters that like to at ppl

But I'm not gonna lie, when it comes to alternate timelines, I do like to see doomsday stuff. Since the main characters are safe in the prime universe anyway, let's see some armageddon. Like the Klingons wiping out half of Starfleet and killing Commander Riker in Yesterday's Enterprise. Or the Xindi blowing up Earth and killing off Archer and his crew in Twilight.

And yea, the Federation has 150 members. But do you think they are all equal? Some of them have the technological level of the Bajorans and you're right, if one of those planets disappeared, the Federation probably wouldn't even notice. But very few members have the power and influence that Vulcan or Earth had.

I'm Canadian and not to belittle our accomplishments but realistically, if my country was never a part of NATO, the alliance probably isn't going to collapse. But if the US or Great Britain weren't part of the alliance, well thats a totally different story. The cold war might have had a much different outcome.

So how is Vulcan's absence from the Federation going to affect its future conflicts with the Klingons/Romulans/Borg/Dominion etc?

 

[Feofilakt]

So how is Vulcan's absence from the Federation going to affect its future conflicts with the Klingons/Romulans/Borg/Dominion etc?

Realistically?

Well, frankly... in the long run they are going to get steamrolled, or fall into the trap of human aggression and burn out like the Diadochi with their neighbors.

 

[RoJoHen]

I think the Whale Probe is gonna fuck us over. Just think of what needed to happen in order for the Enterprise crew to save the day!

Kirk had to maroon Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Years later, Chekov had to rediscover Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Khan had to steal the Genesis device. Spock had to die. Spock had to be reborn on the Genesis planet. Commander Kruge had to try and steal Genesis. Kirk had to blow up the Enterprise and steal a Bird of Prey. They had to take the Bird of Prey all the way to Vulcan (which doesn't EXIST ANYMORE!). Then they had to fly home to Earth, only to be stopped on their way and figure out that the transmission from the Probe was the sound of humpback whales.

That Probe will destroy us all.

Technically, all that's strictly necessary to save Earth from the probe is two things: that the Enterprise is away from Earth, but not too far away - close enough to get there quickly, but not so close that they are disabled; and that they know about the slingshot effect. Personally, I think the second is in more peril than the first.

And you need a recently-resurrected Spock who is just whacked out enough to realize that it is whale song in the first place!

 

[Vader47000]

BSG = "God did it." Really? That's all we could come up with?

I guess they'd just have to call it "Q" and it would have been OK, right?

 

[Vader47000]

If I was Spock prime, knowing what I know about the Federation's future conflicts, I'd start working on a way to get back to my own universe. Or I'd tell the alternate Enterprise crew to start looking for that reset button!

Spock already knows what to do. He knows how to time warp (ST4). Just go back to before the Narada emerges into 2233, wait for it to show up and before it can react, blow the hell out of it.

It's just easier to think of this as a parallel universe with different rules altogether.

 

[jealousblues]

meh, they will just get a "new" species to fill that role wheather its a plot device or an alliance made of of necessity.

Maybe its the Gorn or the Andorians (I know they are part of the Federation but lets say they play a bigger role in the reboot)?

 

[USS Triumphant]

Spock already knows what to do. He knows how to time warp (ST4). Just go back to before the Narada emerges into 2233, wait for it to show up and before it can react, blow the hell out of it.

Solves nothing - just creates (emphasizes?) a different quantum reality. The nuTrek universe would still exist, with its Vulcan destroyed. Just like the Prime universe didn't cease to exist just because Nero and Spock went back and changed tracks.

That's one reason I think Spock Prime doesn't want to "fix the timeline" or go back "home" - in his native branch of reality, Romulus is destroyed, and his decades of work toward Reunification are mostly moot. May as well retire to his own younger days.

 

[Captain_Rogers]

NOBODY wants to side with a loser, no matter how nice they are. The fact the brigands were defeated would be a small consolation, because if the hypothetical threat can't handle small groups of brigands burning down their most important cities, what -can- they handle?

Sorry but your argument is very flawed, and I see it isn't the first time your hypothesis is in error.

Since you use the example of small city/state type of scenario, I'll once again draw the comparison with 9/11.

Using your logic, flawed as it might be, the US is pretty much toast now right? After all, if we can be hit hard like we were in a major metropolis well what can we handle right?

 

[Ryan8bit]

9/11 isn't comparable to losing Vulcan. If you wanted to compare, it would be like the US losing all of NY state, and parts of the surrounding states and cities.

Everyone keeps throwing out the 150 number, but that was how many member planets there were in the late 24th century. We're in the mid-23rd century, so chances are that there are only maybe like 30 member planets, Vulcan being one of the most integrated and developed of those planets, so they could make up to about 10% of the Federation's economy and research. Taking that much away would be devastating to any government, especially in a cold war kind of situation.

So given the number of close calls the Federation has had, that kind of loss would probably imply doom.

 

[RobertScorpio]

We've seen in the original timeline that the Federation just barely fights off some of its biggest rivals. But with Vulcan destroyed in the alternate timeline, you've got to be believe that the Federation is significantly weaker. Vulcan was one of the most important members in the Federation and the most technologically advanced prior to its founding. (Think NATO without the US or UK).

Even if the Federation isn't overrun by the Klingons or Romulans. What chance are they going to have against the Borg, or the Dominion?

I just think its kinda ironic to save Earth from Nero, but that it will probably end up getting assimilated one day.

If I was Spock prime, knowing what I know about the Federation's future conflicts, I'd start working on a way to get back to my own universe. Or I'd tell the alternate Enterprise crew to start looking for that reset button!

And right now, throught out the world, most people, NORMAL people, could give a flying F about what you just wrote. This movie is trying to increase the possibility that some of our TREK friends will have sex at least ONCE in their lives. This kind of Thread only sets us back...

Rob

 

[RoJoHen]

We've seen in the original timeline that the Federation just barely fights off some of its biggest rivals. But with Vulcan destroyed in the alternate timeline, you've got to be believe that the Federation is significantly weaker. Vulcan was one of the most important members in the Federation and the most technologically advanced prior to its founding. (Think NATO without the US or UK).

Even if the Federation isn't overrun by the Klingons or Romulans. What chance are they going to have against the Borg, or the Dominion?

I just think its kinda ironic to save Earth from Nero, but that it will probably end up getting assimilated one day.

If I was Spock prime, knowing what I know about the Federation's future conflicts, I'd start working on a way to get back to my own universe. Or I'd tell the alternate Enterprise crew to start looking for that reset button!

And right now, throught out the world, most people, NORMAL people, could give a flying F about what you just wrote. This movie is trying to increase the possibility that some of our TREK friends will have sex at least ONCE in their lives. This kind of Thread only sets us back...

Rob

I'm pretty sure this thread is meant to be nothing more than fun speculation. Calm down.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

And right now, throught out the world, most people, NORMAL people, could give a flying F about what you just wrote. This movie is trying to increase the possibility that some of our TREK friends will have sex at least ONCE in their lives. This kind of Thread only sets us back...

Rob

What the fuck?

Normal ppl? What? You think you know me? You think cuz I say a few negative comments about ur favourite movie, I don't have a life now?

For the record, I like this movie, and like RoJoHen said, this is all for fun. But I guess some ppl duno how to have a little fun.

I am curious tho, what makes you so normal, Rob? Who the fuck are you and what are you doing with your life thats so great? You got no job, you just sit around do jack shit all day home. Do you even have friends? Your online gaming buddies don't count. 12 posts a day on this BBS. Whoop dee fucking do.

Not that my sex life is any of you're fucking business but I lost my virginity a long time ago. I meet so many girls every weekend that I can't even remember their names, (at least untill they find me and add me on facebook). I practically live at night clubs and bars. I can call out a different chick every day of the week. But you know what? That doesnt mean shit to me.

The important thing is that I don't spend my entire day sitting on my ass at home posting on this board and playing Brave and the Bold or whatever you call it. I got a great career that keeps me crazy busy but I make damn good money for someone fresh out of uni. I work hard, I party harder, and I got no time to sit at home.

Yeah I know you got a son, I feel bad for him having you as a role model. And yea thats great you got a wife, who still has to go to work while you sit on your ass enjoying retirement. Women, no matter what kind of bullshit they feed you about love and relationships, they always go for guys that have the good jobs, lots of money and drive fancy cars. But if your wife doesnt mind supporting the family while you sit home and play video games. Well then, she must be very special....or just fucking butt ugly and fat as a whale



I'm probably gonna get banned for this. Sorry mods, but I couldnt resist . It was nice knowin you guys! peace!

 

[Feofilakt]

And right now, throught out the world, most people, NORMAL people, could give a flying F about what you just wrote. This movie is trying to increase the possibility that some of our TREK friends will have sex at least ONCE in their lives. This kind of Thread only sets us back...

Rob

What the fuck?

Normal ppl? What? You think you know me? You think cuz I say a few negative comments about ur favourite movie, I don't have a life now?

For the record, I like this movie, and like RoJoHen said, this is all for fun. But I guess some ppl duno how to have a little fun.

I am curious tho, what makes you so normal, Rob? Who the fuck are you and what are you doing with your life thats so great? You got no job, you just sit around do jack shit all day home. Do you even have friends? Your online gaming buddies don't count. 12 posts a day on this BBS. Whoop dee fucking do.

Not that my sex life is any of you're fucking business but I lost my virginity a long time ago. I meet so many girls every weekend that I can't even remember their names, (at least untill they find me and add me on facebook). I practically live at night clubs and bars. I can call out a different chick every day of the week. But you know what? That doesnt mean shit to me.

The important thing is that I don't spend my entire day sitting on my ass at home posting on this board and playing Brave and the Bold or whatever you call it. I got a great career that keeps me crazy busy but I make damn good money for someone fresh out of uni. I work hard, I party harder, and I got no time to sit at home.

Yeah I know you got a son, I feel bad for him having you as a role model. And yea thats great you got a wife, who still has to go to work while you sit on your ass enjoying retirement. Women, no matter what kind of bullshit they feed you about love and relationships, they always go for guys that have the good jobs, lots of money and drive fancy cars. But if your wife doesnt mind supporting the family while you sit home and play video games. Well then, she must be very special....or just fucking butt ugly and fat as a whale



I'm probably gonna get banned for this. Sorry mods, but I couldnt resist . It was nice knowin you guys! peace!

I am not affiliated with this guy

Can't we talk about the political realities of a fictional world without becoming juvenile fucktards?