I preferred the Prime timeline.

[Midquest]

I figure it’s fairly simple. “I am the biggest Star Trek fan! I am the truest fan! I love Star Trek so much that— oh, I don’t like this bit of Star Trek. And yet, I am the biggest fan. That must mean —this isn’t really Star Trek! I, the gatekeeper of all true Trek, banish this from the True Trek!”

You can change just a few words and get the version for people who love all Star Trek but don’t bother with the books and comics and get dismissive about how they’re just a waste of time because they aren’t canon.

I think you have this absolutely right. This is one of those things that has always (and continues to) utterly baffle me. I don't particularly like TOS or Enterprise, but I don't believe I've ever for a minute thought, let alone stated, that they aren't true Star Trek just because I don't like them much. I can't even imagine how I would reach that mental space.

And yet the number of times people have told me that I'm not a real Star Trek fan because I (a) like Discovery or (b) only grew up with TNG is probably at least above twenty. My favorite: "It's fine if you like Discovery, but let's be real. Those of us who grew up with Star Trek just get it in a way young people can't. It's OK if you're one of the latter. "

 

[donners22]

Really. That would be awesome. But, from what I can see, their uniforms are dark blue, not like the ones in TOS and the Cage. If they were set within this time frame, then their uniforms should be consistent. I'm very hard line on canon, but maybe there's no longer canon.

Then no doubt you equally dismissed:

* Every series from TNG onward for changing the appearance of Romulans
* DS9 for changing the appearance of Trill, and the name/backstory of the Bajora...er, Bajorans
* III and IV for changing the appearance of Saavik.
* Much of TOS for reviving the dead Lt Leslie
* First Contact for retconning Best of Both Worlds

Just as a few examples.

But yeah, Discovery is the one which broke canon...based on you watching a trailer.

 

[fireproof78]

But yeah, Discovery is the one which broke canon...based on you watching a trailer.

And reading things on the Internet.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But that's what canon is. It is all the work that is relevant to the story being told.

Comics had crossover events between Superman/Gen13, or the Justice League/WildC.A.T.S and no one considered them canon. And then a few years later Image comics were swallowed by DC, and in the new canon you'll see Gen13's Fairchild show up in Superboy's comic, or delightful interactions between Midnighter and Nightwing in Grayson.

Even works by a single creator working on a long running series can change significantly during their run and backtrack/change stuff previously established in its run. My favorite example is Strangers in Paradise, which was completed with 90 issues released over 14 years. I happen to own the pocket book editions, and it's fascinating to see how things change during that run. My absolute favorite is the part where Moore, the author, soft-reboots the series by jumping into the future, and establishes the entire plot up till now to be a manuscript about her mothers life that the daughter of one of the main characters is trying to get published. It is rejected by an editor, leading the daughter to rewrite it, which is the rest of the series, but with slight differences being basically stuff edited out or added in her manuscript.

Here's the thing: In a living franchise/story, meaning one that is still actively being told, changes are inevitable. It's not immutable holy writ, and that is not a bad thing.

And it can lead to things that don't work out being changed into things that do work. Or are you railing against the organisation Kirk and crew are part of being retconned into the Federation, too, because the writer coming up with it contradicted what came before?

So if there were a Strangers in Paradise movie, is it in the same canon as the comics canon?

https://variety.com/2017/film/news/...-movie-adaptation-angela-robinson-1202557341/

They would have to take into account, bending space and time, to make the movie make sense in relation to every single Strangers in Paradise comic ever made, if the movie and comics and novels are all the same canon, and not three different canons?

Movies + TV + Netflix = a Canon.

Comics = different canon.

Books = different canon.

Computer games = different canon.

trading cards = different canon.

Advertising = different canon.

Carol Marcus showed up a few weeks ago advertising a game.

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Some are saying that this is the last canon appearance of the Kelivn timeline.

But it's advertising for a game!

 

[Alan Roi]

I think you have this absolutely right. This is one of those things that has always (and continues to) utterly baffle me. I don't particularly like TOS or Enterprise, but I don't believe I've ever for a minute thought, let alone stated, that they aren't true Star Trek just because I don't like them much. I can't even imagine how I would reach that mental space.

And yet the number of times people have told me that I'm not a real Star Trek fan because I (a) like Discovery or (b) only grew up with TNG is probably at least above twenty. My favorite: "It's fine if you like Discovery, but let's be real. Those of us who grew up with Star Trek just get it in a way young people can't. It's OK if you're one of the latter. "

You might find some Irony in that I grew up with TOS & the Movies, but find I enjoy Disco more than either the Berman or JJ iterations. Perhaps I'm to old to get into it the way that 25-45 year olds get it?

 

[Daddy Todd]

I didn't say 7I think it's jarring to just thrust her back in the story changed and not address it somehow. You can't just hand-wave that much character arc away. It has to be addressed in some integral way.

Back in the ‘90’s, the Monkees did a reunion show. The joke was, it was done as if they had continued to do 26 episodes a year for the previous 28 years, since the cancellation. It was one of the few funny things about the reunion show.

What you’re asking for is the same thing: they haven’t been making 26 episodes of Voyager each of the last 20 years since it went off the air. How would you suggest the producers recapitulate 20 years of life for Annika Hansen (or whatever she calls herself these days)?

Maybe their approach will be to dump you in media res in the “current” day, and fill in any details relevant to the story they’re trying to tell. Maybe “why is Seven like that nowadays?” is part of the plot of the show...?

 

[serabine]

So if there were a Strangers in Paradise movie is in the same canon?

https://variety.com/2017/film/news/...-movie-adaptation-angela-robinson-1202557341/

They would have to take into account, bending space and time, to make the movie make sense in relation to every single Strangers in Paradise comic ever made, if the movie and comics and novels are all the same canon, and not three different canons?

Movies + TV + Netflix = a Canon.

Comics = different canon.

Books = different canon.

Computer games = different canon.

trading cards = different canon.

Advertising = different canon.

Carol Marcus showed up a few weeks ago advertising a game.

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Accept third party cookies

Some are saying that this is the last canon appearance of the Kelivn timeline.

But it's advertising for a game!

I'm really not getting your point here. Like, I'm tempted to ask you for a definition of the term "canon" because you keep using that word and I do not think it means what you think it means.

Are you thinking that canon has to be bilateral between works in a franchise in different media? That's not the case. The actress who played Carol Marcus is advertising a game that clearly uses the Kelvin timeline as its setting, so what is shown in those movies is probably treated as canon for the game. Because it will have it's own internal canon. But if there ever is a fourth Kelvin movie it will likely ignore the game and what happens in it completely. That's pretty straight forward.

As for a Strangers in Paradise movie (which is really stupid, it should be a show) why would an adaptation have any bearing on the canon events of the completed original run of the comic? It's a retelling in a different media format. It will likely change a lot from the comic (again, show would be better) for example by cutting characters from the comic. So what is or isn't canon for the comic plays no role in adapting it. It will be its own beast, so there will be no need to "fit" anything with anything.

Now Strangers in Paradise XXV or the massive crossover event between his different comics Moore is planning, which are both continuations of the original comic are canon with SiP and if Moore so wishes he could retroactively change events from the original by adding new context to it.

So, again. The creators of an ongoing work of fiction get to decide what they consider canon or not, just like they can retroactively change what they consider part of canon, or if a work tying in to the franchise should be considered canon.

ETA: If anyone is ever so bored to make a word cloud of this comment it will be mainly the word canon in pt72 font.

 

[donners22]

Some are saying that this is the last canon appearance of the Kelivn timeline.

By that standard, I assume canon also includes Shatner and the Gorn playing the Kelvin game, Shatner dressing up as Kirk for the Emmies, the Frasier spoof of Voyager and the softcore porn video where “Scotty” beams off a woman’s clothes.

 

[Vger23]

These are always good threads.

 

[Trekkie27]

* First Contact for retconning Best of Both Worlds

Well, canon over 50 years will become contradictory. But why do you say First Contact retconned Best of Both Worlds? Because Starfleet could defeat the cube?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Some are saying that this is the last canon appearance of the Kelivn timeline.

By that standard, I assume canon also includes Shatner and the Gorn playing the Kelvin game, Shatner dressing up as Kirk for the Emmies, the Frasier spoof of Voyager and the softcore porn video where “Scotty” beams off a woman’s clothes.

Above where I wrote that, I said that video game canon is a different canon to the TV + movies canon, and advertising canon is a different canon to TV + movies canon. So it's implied that Video game canon is a different canon to advertising canon. Sorry for implying instead of typing a further nine words.

Right?

So when I said "some people" think that advertising videogame canon is the same is TV + movies canon, by posting the youtube of Carol, I was being polite and not saying "some idiot fucking morons" think that advertising videogame canon is the same is TV + movies canon, by posting the youtube of Carol.

So we agree?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, canon over 50 years will become contradictory. But why do you say First Contact retconned Best of Both Worlds? Because Starfleet could defeat the cube?

The Queen was there in the Best of Both Worlds, becuase First Contact says that she was.

 

[donners22]

So we agree?

Well yeah, I was agreeing with you in what I thought was a facetious manner.

But why do you say First Contact retconned Best of Both Worlds? Because Starfleet could defeat the cube?

Being "hard line on canon", I'd have thought you would have some difficulty with the fact that Picard never mentioned being well aware that the Borg had a Queen.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm really not getting your point here. Like, I'm tempted to ask you for a definition of the term "canon" because you keep using that word and I do not think it means what you think it means.

Are you thinking that canon has to be bilateral between works in a franchise in different media? That's not the case. The actress who played Carol Marcus is advertising a game that clearly uses the Kelvin timeline as its setting, so what is shown in those movies is probably treated as canon for the game. Because it will have it's own internal canon. But if there ever is a fourth Kelvin movie it will likely ignore the game and what happens in it completely. That's pretty straight forward.

As for a Strangers in Paradise movie (which is really stupid, it should be a show) why would an adaptation have any bearing on the canon events of the completed original run of the comic? It's a retelling in a different media format. It will likely change a lot from the comic (again, show would be better) for example by cutting characters from the comic. So what is or isn't canon for the comic plays no role in adapting it. It will be its own beast, so there will be no need to "fit" anything with anything.

Now Strangers in Paradise XXV or the massive crossover event between his different comics Moore is planning, which are both continuations of the original comic are canon with SiP and if Moore so wishes he could retroactively change events from the original by adding new context to it.

So, again. The creators of an ongoing work of fiction get to decide what they consider canon or not, just like they can retroactively change what they consider part of canon, or if a work tying in to the franchise should be considered canon.

ETA: If anyone is ever so bored to make a word cloud of this comment it will be mainly the word canon in pt72 font.

I was shitting on the idea of a Strangers in Paradise movie sharing the same canon as the Strangers in Paradise comics. Shitting on it, not praising. I was also shitting on the idea of Carol being the last fragment of kelvin to pop up in our universe. It's not the last fragment of Kelvin to pop up in our universe.

So yeah.

You probably agree with me, but you can't understand me.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well, canon over 50 years will become contradictory. But why do you say First Contact retconned Best of Both Worlds? Because Starfleet could defeat the cube?

The Queen was there in Picard's First Contact flashbacks (where he's also assimilated more and with FC-style Borg makeup) and obviously wasnt thought of in "Best of Both Worlds"

There was also the speech about the Borg expanding, assimilating words and Starfleet constantly falling back which came out of nowhere and doesn't really fit with anything.

 

[Jayson1]

These are always good threads.

I don't see why this post doesn't have more likes. I think the joke might have been to deadpan! Anyways I think we won't know for sure if it is canon until we see a klingon forehead. The only true measuring stick. Jason

 

[serabine]

I was shitting on the idea of a Strangers in Paradise movie sharing the same canon as the Strangers in Paradise comics. Shitting on it, not praising. I was also shitting on the idea of Carol being the last fragment of kelvin to pop up in our universe. It's not the last fragment of Kelvin to pop up in our universe.

So yeah.

You probably agree with me, but you can't understand me.

I really don't.

Like, you're "shitting on the idea of a Strangers in Paradise movie sharing the same canon as the Strangers in Paradise comics". You're shitting ... on your own idea? Because who claimed such a thing?

And you're put out someone somewhere told you that Carol Markus in a game commercial would be the the last fragment of the Kelvinverse in "our universe". What is "our universe" in this context? Real life?

 

[F. King Daniel]

That game has made $100million so far. Captain Picard and a bunch of Berman-Trek characters are back after 18 years. Never ever say never

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're shitting ... on your own idea? Because who claimed such a thing?

But that's what canon is. It is all the work that is relevant to the story being told.

You've said that every thing is canon that the creators say is canon. That the TV show and movies must respect contributions of he Novels, T-shirts and coasters if their creators insist that one particular thingy that they made is hella important to the complete Universe... But even though Jeri Taylor yelled from the belfries that her book Pathways is TV + Movie Canon and that every other Book had to accept that it was "real" and no one was allowed to ignore her book, or overwrite her stories with their own imagining or a Voyager prequel, whether it be novel, comic, TV show or movie until the end of time, she is full of it becuase she does not have the power to police that benediction now or 20 years ago.

You used Strangers in Paradise as an example of good canon.

Great.

No mater how long it's been around it's one comic book line fixed into the lore of a single canonography.

But what if there is a movie?

Would it be the same canon?

Or a second parallel canon?

Like how the Litverse canon and the TV + Movies canon in Star Trek are not identical.

Would everything in the Strangers in Paradise comics and everything in the 5 Strangers in Paradise movies have all happened, in the same canon and all been true things that happened?

Or would there be a comics canon and a Movie Canon?

Similar canon, not identical canon and not dependent on each other unless it's convenient.

Does anyone still believe that Shadows of the Empire the Video game is set between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, and that it is considered an equally relevant part the story as either of those movies?

 

[Infern0]

I know it's prime but is it 15% different prime?