I Pledge Allegiance...Umm, no I don't!

[JustKate]

This Land is Your Land is a pinko commie song

And this is a problem for you?

 

[RJDiogenes]

That's terrible. American schools should teach, y'know, American History.

Right, because clearly we are the only country that matters.

I didn't say that, did I? Every country should teach its own History.

(Personally, I think "This Land Is Your Land" would be much better.)

I've also thought that for a long time; not that I dislike "The Star-Spangled Banner" (which is actually a very cool song in its entirety), but "This Land Is Your Land" really sums up the American philosophy very well.

 

[Gertch]

(Personally, I think "This Land Is Your Land" would be much better.)

I've also thought that for a long time; not that I dislike "The Star-Spangled Banner" (which is actually a very cool song in its entirety), but "This Land Is Your Land" really sums up the American philosophy very well.

Agree. I would also throw America the Beautiful as a possible successor as well. At least we could all sing either one without straining.

 

[sidious618]

Maybe someone else has already pointed this out, but...

When you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you aren't just talking about the dang flag. The words are "I pledge allegiance to the flag...and to the republic for which it stands."

But you're still pledging allegiance to the flag which, to me, is weird.

 

[Davros]

Because the best way to show that you love your country is to do good deeds and not by paying lip-service to ideals you have no intention of upholding?

Well, if "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" is lip service, count me in. I agree with you on good deeds though!

There is no "under God" line in the real pledge.

This Land is Your Land is a pinko commie song

No it isn't

 

[Gepard]

From what I remember way back when I was in school, American History rarely ever got past WWII, simply because we just ran out of time at the end of the year.

You know, as much as people made fun of him for it, this kind of thing is what made me think Dayton3 was on to something with his "Teach history in reverse" idea.

 

[TGTheodore]

Maybe someone else has already pointed this out, but...

When you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you aren't just talking about the dang flag. The words are "I pledge allegiance to the flag...and to the republic for which it stands."

But you're still pledging allegiance to the flag which, to me, is weird.

So ... one should look at the actual ground then ... ?

--Ted

 

[JustKate]

^ Yeah. In context, it is completely clear that you aren't pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth but to a symbol (which is independent of the material used to fabricate it - it is for example still a symbol if it's made of pixels on a computer screen) and to the country it symbolizes. I don't see anything inherently wrong with cutting out the middleman - or middlesymbol - if you don't personally find this language the most effective way to state your allegiance. The difficulty there of course is that everybody around you who doesn't have a problem with the traditional language will continue to use it. But if that doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me.

To keep insisting, however, that all it's talking about is an oblong-shaped piece of fabric is simply not correct. Sorry, but it really isn't. Reread the words sometime when you are feeling open-minded and unburdened with the assumptions of the past and see what they actually say.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

This Land is Your Land is a pinko commie song

No it isn't

Well, I was being facetious. The reason I said it was because the song was accused of that when it was first written. While it's true Woodie Guthrie wanted it to be his version of America the Beautiful, he also wrote it as a protest song because people were starving in the Great Depression. "This land is your land, this land is my land" literally meant that there should be no private property.

Here are a couple of verses that people usually don't sing anymore:

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tresspassin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

And

In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
If this land's still made for you and me.

 

[JustKate]

^ I just wanted to let you know, Alidar, that I knew you were kidding. Heck, it made me laugh, anyway.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Well, I figured many people knew I was kidding, I just couldn't pass up the chance for a history lesson (especially one about music)

 

[RyanKCR]

For those here with an issue of the pledge probably were not in the military or have or had family members in the military. The flag has a high importance on the battlefield. The pledge is a rocognition of the people that were in the battlefield that helped form this nation.

As for how the US and religion go together here is a quote from John Adams:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other

 

[The Grim Ghost]

For those here with an issue of the pledge probably were not in the military or have or had family members in the military. The flag has a high importance on the battlefield. The pledge is a rocognition of the people that were in the battlefield that helped form this nation.

As for how the US and religion go together here is a quote from John Adams:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other

Here's another one from Adams..

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

and one from Thomas Jefferson..

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Would it help if the US would instate a new flag? One that's completely pink?

If people go up in arms, you'd know they're not actually pledging to the country and what the flag stands for, but the actual piece of cloth only.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

For those here with an issue of the pledge probably were not in the military or have or had family members in the military. The flag has a high importance on the battlefield. The pledge is a rocognition of the people that were in the battlefield that helped form this nation.

As for how the US and religion go together here is a quote from John Adams:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other

Do you know when he said it? Adams used religion a lot more when he was running against Jefferson than other times because Jefferson wasn't particularly religious (and was a supporter of the French Revolution which had outright anti-religious tones at certain points).

 

[SeerSGB]

For those here with an issue of the pledge probably were not in the military or have or had family members in the military. The flag has a high importance on the battlefield. The pledge is a rocognition of the people that were in the battlefield that helped form this nation.

As for how the US and religion go together here is a quote from John Adams:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other

Miltary family all the way back to the civil war, name a war my family (on both sides) had someone fighting in it. And you know what I get told by retired Air Force Uncle when I say I don't stand and I don't pledge: This is what we fight and die for, your right to do and not do what you want and not be forced into something cause it's "American".

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I can cite a hundred examples of founders stating the importance of recognizing God as instrumental in the founding of the United States. We are quite simply founded on Judeu-Christian values even though we have seperation of church and state.

 

[JustKate]

Yeah. You could have a quote war, but what would it prove? How good various people are at finding quotes, that's what. Quoting the founders is almost like quoting the Bible or Shakespeare in that you can almost always find something that seems to agree with whatever philosophical point you want to make, if you look hard enough.

 

[RyanKCR]

For those here with an issue of the pledge probably were not in the military or have or had family members in the military. The flag has a high importance on the battlefield. The pledge is a rocognition of the people that were in the battlefield that helped form this nation.

As for how the US and religion go together here is a quote from John Adams:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other

Here's another one from Adams..

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

and one from Thomas Jefferson..

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

I like Jefferson:

“I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.”



In context of this thread:

"Love your neighbor as yourself and your country more than yourself."

Here's a John Adams quote:

"It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship."


Now what is interesting about all the quotes you and I have here is that it shows that the founders did not want government control over how anybody in private or in public office practiced or held religious beliefs. There are those today who want to halt any and all public expressions of beliefs by those in office and in the general public itself. And as a backlash showing this not to be the founders intention, went too far in saying that the founders wanted the US to be acknowledged as a Christian Nation. They, themselves, instituded the opening prayers in congress, etc.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

For some of them, like Thomas Jefferson you are going to find that he has some pro religion quotes, but far more anti-religion ones.