I Pledge Allegiance...Umm, no I don't!

[Misfit Toy]

Because the best way to show that you love your country is to do good deeds and not by paying lip-service to ideals you have no intention of upholding?

Well, if "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" is lip service, count me in. I agree with you on good deeds though!

Indivisable, hmm? Do you think that your current avatar is divisive?

 

[sidious618]

I don't say the pledge of allegiance ever. It's silly and it has no meaning for me because 1)I feel no sense of patriotism and 2)I don't believe in God.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would want to pledge allegiance to a flag in the first place. It's just a piece of cloth.

Exactly.

 

[SeerSGB]

One of the fights/beefs I had at my son's old school was that they were REQUIRED to say the pledge as part of their grade-- and this was pre-K/K grade levels. I explained to them that 1) my son, technically [long story], has dual-citizenship, 2) he would be pledging against his mother's country, and 3) as a mixed nationality family we found it offensive. And basically got called a few standard insults (commie, unamerican, etc) and told he did it or he was held back a year.

 

[sidious618]

One of the fights/beefs I had at my son's old school was that they were REQUIRED to say the pledge as part of their grade-- and this was pre-K/K grade levels. I explained to them that 1) my son, technically [long story], has dual-citizenship, 2) he would be pledging against his mother's country, and 3) as a mixed nationality family we found it offensive. And basically got called a few standard insults (commie, unamerican, etc) and told he did it or he was held back a year.

That's illegal, they cannot make your son do that. You could've sued the school.

 

[cultcross]

One of the fights/beefs I had at my son's old school was that they were REQUIRED to say the pledge as part of their grade-- and this was pre-K/K grade levels. I explained to them that 1) my son, technically [long story], has dual-citizenship, 2) he would be pledging against his mother's country, and 3) as a mixed nationality family we found it offensive. And basically got called a few standard insults (commie, unamerican, etc) and told he did it or he was held back a year.

Whereas being pro- mandatory chanting allegiance to the state in unison is very anti-communist.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

One of the fights/beefs I had at my son's old school was that they were REQUIRED to say the pledge as part of their grade-- and this was pre-K/K grade levels. I explained to them that 1) my son, technically [long story], has dual-citizenship, 2) he would be pledging against his mother's country, and 3) as a mixed nationality family we found it offensive. And basically got called a few standard insults (commie, unamerican, etc) and told he did it or he was held back a year.

What they did was insulting to one's intelligence and abilities to make an informed decision. Not to mention overstepping their bounds as a teacher.

 

[Count Zero]

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would want to pledge allegiance to a flag in the first place. It's just a piece of cloth.

Well-- IMO-- I think it should be the Constitution [which is what I was saying before I stopped all together] or just "I Pledge allegiance to the united states of America..."; take flag out entirely.

That would make more sense but I think I'd still be skeptical about it. Why should anyone pledge his allegiance to the state/constitution unless they are sworn into an office or become soldiers?
And making school children say it regularly comes off as an indoctrination to me. No offense to the Americans here.

 

[SeerSGB]

One of the fights/beefs I had at my son's old school was that they were REQUIRED to say the pledge as part of their grade-- and this was pre-K/K grade levels. I explained to them that 1) my son, technically [long story], has dual-citizenship, 2) he would be pledging against his mother's country, and 3) as a mixed nationality family we found it offensive. And basically got called a few standard insults (commie, unamerican, etc) and told he did it or he was held back a year.

That's illegal, they cannot make your son do that. You could've sued the school.

We considered it-- especially in light of other issues with the school-- but opt not too.

 

[cultcross]

And making school children say it regularly comes off as an indoctrination to me. No offense to the Americans here.

It certainly is. To shamelessly Godwin the thread, this sort of thing was expected in Hitler's Germany - salute the flag and chant in unison about the greatness of your nation. With similar bull to that Gally experienced if you refused. Now obviously that 'bull' escalated into trips to the death camps, so it's not a perfect analogy

Quite apart from that, the first definition of the word is:
"to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."

So it certainly fits the bill to have kids chanting and saluting flags at very young ages when they really don't even understand what it is they're pledging.

 

[Teelie]

Yeah, but it's obvious TLS is ironically blinded by his own devotion to the Republican Party to see how backwards his avatar and his argument are about Constitutional rights.

Is it really a good idea to go down that road in Misc considering everything that's just happened?

I don't think anything I said can be interpeted as sexist but if I did, then I apologize for offending the women of the board.

 

[Count Zero]

Aw, come on, cultcross, I intentionally didn't write 'it reminds me of the low point of my country's history' and then you come along like an elephant in a porcelain store...

 

[cultcross]

Aw, come on, cultcross, I intentionally didn't write 'it reminds me of the low point of my country's history' and then you come along like an elephant in a porcelain store...

I live to serve.

 

[Teelie]

Back to the topic, sort of, I had to do that in elementary school too but I'm far from a flag-waving [insert here] and if anything I barely even think of it. I didn't care for it but then no one really took it seriously either.

Some people do though, either the "you must salute" ones or the "you have a right not to" ones and they take what's at best a trivial issue and turn it into a literal federal case.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Good point, though, cultcross. Even if you've battered in with a big-ass tank.

 

[miraclefan]

Frankly? I don't any particular love or loyalty for the US after 8 years of Bush and the gang, thought they're not the sole cause. So once the paperwork is done and dusted, so long USA, hello Canada.

Though to be fair, I stopped saying the pledge and stopped standing years before he came into office.

So even after the obama won and all that hope & change finally came to ameriKa your still leaving? And f.y.i. I never pledged allegiance to any ''FLAG'' or country because (A. it's nothing more then an excuse for a ''us'' vs ''them'' view of the world. (B. it's pretty much WORSHIP of an idea or country, I mean isn't there a quote or something in the bible about not worshiping graven images or something? Where are all the bible thumpers on that issue? if it's the ameriKan flag that's okay then?

 

[Goji]

One of the fights/beefs I had at my son's old school was that they were REQUIRED to say the pledge as part of their grade-- and this was pre-K/K grade levels. I explained to them that 1) my son, technically [long story], has dual-citizenship, 2) he would be pledging against his mother's country, and 3) as a mixed nationality family we found it offensive. And basically got called a few standard insults (commie, unamerican, etc) and told he did it or he was held back a year.

That's illegal, they cannot make your son do that. You could've sued the school.

They tried to make everyone recite the pledge at my school, but the only method they apparently thought they could get away with was to bring the PE teacher in to yell at us for not doing it. He was big and fairly scary, but considering that we were all in the 6th grade at the time, the "do it because I say so" routine was a predictable failure.

My class always sounded like the borg when they were reciting it, which myself and a few others found very amusing. We even used to throw in a little "resistance is futile" or "you will be assimilated" for fun.

 

[SeerSGB]

Frankly? I don't any particular love or loyalty for the US after 8 years of Bush and the gang, thought they're not the sole cause. So once the paperwork is done and dusted, so long USA, hello Canada.

Though to be fair, I stopped saying the pledge and stopped standing years before he came into office.

So even after the obama won and all that hope & change finally came to ameriKa your still leaving? And f.y.i. I never pledged allegiance to any ''FLAG'' or country because (A. it's nothing more then an excuse for a ''us'' vs ''them'' view of the world. (B. it's pretty much WORSHIP of an idea or country, I mean isn't there a quote or something in the bible about not worshiping graven images or something? Where are all the bible thumpers on that issue? if it's the ameriKan flag that's okay then?

At most, MOST, Obama has got 8 years. Whose to predict what the guy to come in after him is going to do. I will say Obama getting elected is why I'm not putting the spurs to it, though. Had McCain/Palin taken the election, well I'd already called the in-laws and had my various notices for clients and bills printed and waiting to be mailed.

 

[Amaris]

Back to the topic, sort of, I had to do that in elementary school too but I'm far from a flag-waving [insert here] and if anything I barely even think of it. I didn't care for it but then no one really took it seriously either.

Some people do though, either the "you must salute" ones or the "you have a right not to" ones and they take what's at best a trivial issue and turn it into a literal federal case.

Agreed. As soon as I was old enough to stop pledging allegiance to the flag, I did. It just felt wrong. I believed in the ideas of freedom and liberty, and I felt pledging to a flag was against those ideas. I don't pledge to any person or any ideology. My faith is firmly against such things, and so I don't make idols and pledge to them, as I consider the U.S. flag a symbol, which means pledging allegiance to it is idolatrous for me.

J.

 

[Teelie]

I've got to nitpick something. Altering a letter to make a "statement" does not make you smarter, does not make your argument more believable or you look credible. AmeriKa is no more than a laughable excuse to thrown in an insult meant to sting. Much like Micro$oft is or altering fanboy to fanboi.

True, this is Misc so silliness is permitted but if you want to be taken more seriously by your opposition, try to make it more difficult, not less to laugh off your arguments.