I need to run this by some people...

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It's a good thing you don't live in my country, I can't imagine that a guy your age peppily discussing boundaries would get much.

 

[Kommander]

Wait, what? You signalled you wanted to ask her out, she said she had a boyfriend, and... I guess this is when you told her you're poly, she said she's not... Maybe I'm missing something here, and granted, I'm not poly, but I hardly see why this calls for a formal discussion of boundaries, any more than her saying she wasn't interested in dating you but would like to keep being friends would.

I myself have never had a notable interest in someone already in a relationship, so I guess I don't know what it's like. All I know is watching the first two seasons of Smallville and wanting to throttle Clark until he straight-up asked Lana to dump the jock for him already.

('Course, he knew for a fact the guy was a dick...)

She's known I'm poly since one of our first few conversations. I have a polyamory symbol tattooed on my left ring finger. She asked me about it and what it meant, so I told her. Telling someone I'm poly right after asking them out and being told their involved with someone tends to come off as "I'm cool with it if you cheat on him," and that is not a good idea even if it was the case. Which, I'm not, or dishonesty in general for that matter.

The issue of boundaries is very important. What friendship is and is not distinct, especially not for me. My various friendships have included everything typical of romantic relationships, and the distinction between friendship and romantic relationship tends to be more about choosing how to define a relationship more than actual substance.

While monos typically have more of a distinction between romance and friendship, there is variation. For some it's as simple as "no sex" or "no falling in love/expressing feelings of love," or both. On the other end, some feel it's inappropriate to have opposite-sex friends at all and tolerate it if their partner insists on it, and plenty of things in between.

I have a general idea of what sorts of things are and are not okay, but there are some things I'm unclear on. She's hugged me before. Was that okay in the first place? Is it not okay now? Can I hug her or do I have to wait for her to hug me. Can we hug whenever we want or should we limit it to only every once in a while? Can I touch her affectionately in other ways as long as they're not overtly sexual? Some of these things come naturally to me and I need to know if I'm likely to cross the line without realizing it.

There's also the opposite of that. I would assume that I'm not allowed to kiss her. However, it's possible that they would think it's okay as long as we're not making out, and that quick, closed-mouth kisses are fine. If that's the case, I would probably like to do that at some point.

The emotional boundaries are even less clear cut. It's known that I'm attracted to her and like her, apparently that's okay as long as I don't act on it. What if I eventually fall in love with her? is that a problem, or only if I act on it? What does "acting on it" mean? Can I say "I love you" to her?

Most of that was just examples of why it's important, a lot of it isn't relevant now and I'll wait until it is. Right now it's mostly about communication. So far I've agreed to not act on any romantic feelings I may have, to not try to convince her to let me act on those feelings, and to not give in if she tries either of those things. She has agreed to bring any concerns about me to my attention, and to ask me questions before making assumptions. These kinds of things are necessary because I know from plenty of experience that stupid bullshit gets in the way very easily but can be avoided if everyone pays attention, and if the arrangement isn't going to work I'll catch on quicker and can possibly back away before I become too attached to her.

It's a good thing you don't live in my country, I can't imagine that a guy your age peppily discussing boundaries would get much.

What? Someone questioning my appeal to women? This has never happened before. I am confused and hurt by this. Seriously, this is going to take some time to sort out. There may be crying.

 

[Gaith]

These kinds of things are necessary because I know from plenty of experience that stupid bullshit gets in the way very easily but can be avoided if everyone pays attention, and if the arrangement isn't going to work ....

"Arrangement"? Dude, you two have a nascent friendship, not a job!

Can I touch her affectionately in other ways as long as they're not overtly sexual? Some of these things come naturally to me and I need to know if I'm likely to cross the line without realizing it.

Good rule of thumb, IMHO: don't do anything she doesn't do first, and do less of it.


Ironically, it sounds to me as though you may be coming down with a case of oneitis, for which the cure is to go out and meet ten other women. If, in the course of your parallel developing friendship with this gal, she lets on that her bf's a dick, tell her she deserves to be treated better. If her relationship fails, the sooner you become aware of that, the better. Until then, however, it's probably best to direct your romantic/+sexual hopes elsewhere... unless, of course, you elect to straight-up ask her to dump her guy and give you a shot.

 

[Kestra]

I think you're reading him entirely wrong.

 

[Kommander]

"Arrangement"? Dude, you two have a nascent friendship, not a job!

The two are actually somewhat similar, hence the point of the comic.

Good rule of thumb, IMHO: don't do anything she doesn't do first, and do less of it.

For the most part, yes. That's probably one of the things I won't need to mention unless it becomes relevant. Of course, she could cross the line and I wouldn't necessarily know.

Ironically, it sounds to me as though you may be coming down with a case of oneitis, for which the cure is to go out and meet ten other women. {...} Until then, however, it's probably best to direct your romantic/+sexual hopes elsewhere... unless, of course, you elect to straight-up ask her to dump her guy and give you a shot.

This does not apply to my way of thinking, and would take a very long time to explain. It's easier just to say, read up on polyamory if the subject is of academic or personal interest to you. I can probably dig up some links if you'd like.[/quote]

If, in the course of your parallel developing friendship with this gal, she lets on that her bf's a dick, tell her she deserves to be treated better. If her relationship fails, the sooner you become aware of that, the better.

I need to be cautious about this sort of thing. I don't trust myself to decide if her boyfriend is a dick or not. To put it bluntly: he's interfering with what I want, I'm biased, and I'm not going to be a dick. For me to interfere in their relationship, he would have to be acting abusive toward her, or she would have to explicitly state that she wants the relationship to end. If abuse was happening, and I get her out of it, I would recommend she talk to a real counselor and not pursue romance with anyone for at least several months.

I think you're reading him entirely wrong.

I'd say he and I have different perspectives and past experiences, we intrepret things differently, and neither one of us is wrong or right.

What I said elsewhere really bothered you, didn't it? Fine! I like you now. So lets hug and then have a lengthy discussion about boundaries.

 

[Kestra]

Nah, I'm good. I'm generally not fond of hugs. What did you want to discuss?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It's a good thing you don't live in my country, I can't imagine that a guy your age peppily discussing boundaries would get much.

What? Someone questioning my appeal to women? This has never happened before. I am confused and hurt by this. Seriously, this is going to take some time to sort out. There may be crying.

I don't allow crying in my presence, cyber or otherwise, unless there is an understanding between the cryer and his/her partner or potential partner that my listening to the crying is done out of an impartial and respectful desire to partake of the human condition and that there will be no personal, ie possibly bonding element between the cryer and myself as a result of the crying.

 

[Kommander]

I lurk more than I post, I suppose it is because I think it is redundant offer my two cents when everyone else has, especially when threads like this give me a headache because they become more about the contemplation of the act of asking a girl out rather than sharing the outcome of the attempt.

I somehow overlooked your post before. Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you.

As much as it looked like it, this really wasn't a "I like a girl and I'm nervous about asking her out" thread. That was more of a separate issue. I understood long before starting this thread that the solution was "find the balls that you've clearly misplaced and fucking ask her out!" However, understanding something logically and being in the proper emotional state to do it are two separate things. Although, several people pointing this out probably helped with that.

The point of the thread was more "I have an idea for something that is in line with my penchant for being exceedingly obtuse. However, if too overt it may appear creepy, and if too subtle won't be noticed and be a waste of time. How likely is it that I can pull off something between the two extremes." Which, several people pointed out that my original title was probably too overt, and I decided they were right. Although, at first I thought she didn't get it, but given recent developments, I'm pretty sure she got it and understood what I was getting at. So, I probably pulled it off.

Also, it has come to my attention that my avatar of the Weird Kid from Misfits was probably shaping the perception of this thread, even for those that aren't familiar with the show or character. So, I changed my avatar to the fictional character I most identify with and best represents my personality: Shawn Spencer from Psych. If one goes back and imagines Shawn narrating all my posts, this thread will probably make a lot more sense.

What did you want to discuss?

Facetiousness. When is it appropriate to be facetious? How does one determine if another is being facetious? How does being facetious affect one's ability to communicate?

I don't allow crying in my presence, cyber or otherwise, unless there is an understanding between the cryer and his/her partner or potential partner that my listening to the crying is done out of an impartial and respectful desire to partake of the human condition and that there will be no personal, ie possibly bonding element between the cryer and myself as a result of the crying.

That's probably the best impersonation of me I've seen in quite a while.

 

[Kestra]

I don't do well with facetiousness from people that I don't know. Especially over the internet. Plus my humor filter is a bit broken at the moment, sorry!

 

[Gaith]

"Arrangement"? Dude, you two have a nascent friendship, not a job!

The two are actually somewhat similar, hence the point of the comic.

Hombre... nay. The point of the comic is that Calvin is a conceited child, and the humor lies in the fact that his stuffed tiger is wiser and more mature than he is. We're meant to agree with Hobbes at Calvin's expense.

Ironically, it sounds to me as though you may be coming down with a case of oneitis, for which the cure is to go out and meet ten other women. {...} Until then, however, it's probably best to direct your romantic/+sexual hopes elsewhere... unless, of course, you elect to straight-up ask her to dump her guy and give you a shot.

This does not apply to my way of thinking, and would take a very long time to explain. It's easier just to say, read up on polyamory if the subject is of academic or personal interest to you. I can probably dig up some links if you'd like.

You'd like to date several women, including her, and she doesn't want to date you at the moment. Ergo, seems to me your best course is to look for dates elsewhere. What am I missing?

I don't trust myself to decide if her boyfriend is a dick or not. To put it bluntly: he's interfering with what I want, I'm biased, and I'm not going to be a dick.

Impartiality is important in courtrooms; in dating, not so much. Nor are personal biases and correct judgments necessarily incompatible. Anyhow, one can always consult with friends or other clear-minded parties to make a determination on said bf's possible dickitude...

 

[Kommander]

Hombre... nay. The point of the comic is that Calvin is a conceited child, and the humor lies in the fact that his stuffed tiger is wiser and more mature than he is. We're meant to agree with Hobbes at Calvin's expense.

Analogy noted. Also, being condescending is not the same as providing support for an argument. I've overlooked it until now but it's really becoming tiresome.

You'd like to date several women, including her, and she doesn't want to date you at the moment. Ergo, seems to me your best course is to look for dates elsewhere. What am I missing?

I don't have a preference for the number of women I am romantically involved with or date, but I don't want to be limited to one. I don't decide what kind of relationship I want with someone before I know what's possible. I like this girl and am attracted to her, and she seemed to feel similarly, so a dating-type situation seemed like it might work. However, her and her boyfriend have decided to restrict the types of relationships they can form with others, so dating won't work. However, friendship may work, so we're trying that. If we decide in the future that friendship isn't working or that something else might work better, we'll discuss it and make changes then.

Impartiality is important in courtrooms; in dating, not so much. Nor are personal biases and correct judgments necessarily incompatible. Anyhow, one can always consult with friends or other clear-minded parties to make a determination on said bf's possible dickitude...

"He doesn't respect you, you deserve better, and you should leave him." That would be telling her what to do and what she should believe. Seems kind of controlling and manipulative.

"He was being very disrespectful toward you. Is that the kind of boyfriend you want?" pretty much expresses the same thought. However, it leaves it up to her to make the decision herself and shows that I do respect her.

The first makes him look bad, and makes me look bad to a lesser degree. The second makes him look bad, but also makes me look good. The choice seems pretty clear.

Let's say he is a dick, she realizes that, and she leaves him and her and I start dating. Eventually, someone else is going to come along that wants me out of the way, and is likely to try to convince her that I'm a dick. He'll have a much harder time doing that if I focus on making myself look good rather than making others look bad. Also, if I have to be manipulative to maintain a relationship, it's probably not a very fulfilling one.