I miss the "clever klingons" from TOS...

[Ssosmcin]

The Klingon Neutral Zone was established in TWOK during the Kobayashi maru..

...which further blurred the line by stating that they were in the Gamma Hydra system, which was established in "The Deadly Years" as being near the Romulan Neutral Zone. Perhaps we're supposed to think the Klingon and Romulan neutral zones are back-to-back? Geez, what a rotten neighborhood.

Even more fun; they added to the confusion in Star Trek (2009) by having Klingon "Warbirds" during the Kobayashi Maru scene. Warbirds, away teams, humans not being surprised that Romulans look like Vulcans... Damn, Nero, imagine what you would have changed if you killed both of Kirk's parents.

 

[TheKeeper]

I never understood where this "Romulans are honorable" thing came from.

In all three of their TOS appearances, Romulans are scheming bastards, totally devoid of what one would call honor in a human society. First, they perform a cowardly sneak attack with an invisible ship - and are busy stabbing each other in the back during the mission! Then they hide in warships in the Neutral Zone where they ambush a mission of mercy and pound it with their weapons, oblivious to the hails of the victim. And then they are seen operating ships that look like Klingon ones, no doubt to some devious purpose, and again they backstab and scheme and bribe and betray.

Compared to these folks, every TOS Klingon was downright honorable. And even if Kras from "Friday's Child" or the goon from "Elaan of Troyius" were using sneaky tactics, they at least fought "honorably" once challenged. Kor showed typical warrior honor through and through, keeping his promises, respecting his enemies, showing mercy towards those who fumbled and grace in defeat. Koloth was nothing but polite and gracious, and readily withdrew when his subterfuge was exposed. Kang was the very model of the modern Klingon general, not a step behind Martok or Worf in this warrior honor thing.

Kruge would seem to logically follow this continuum of Klingon personalities: a strong leader with strong ideas on honor, even if constantly using guile and deception to defeat his enemies, and showing contempt only to those who couldn't hold their own against him.

In turn, very little from the books of Diane Duane sounds true when the continuum of Romulan behavior is considered. Duane seems to be describing a lost world, a bygone time whose disappearance the commander in "Balance of Terror" can only lament...

Timo Saloniemi

Timo, in the brief time I've lurked and been a member here, I've admired your many thoughtful and informed posts. Please don't take it personally when I say of the post above that I never knew my WTF-ometer could go to 11.

I'll grant that "Balance of Terror" involved a sneak attack, but from the rest of your statements about it I have to wonder if we watched the same episode. Stabbing each other in the back?

On the other hand, "Errand of Mercy"'s Kor brutally interrogated a Vulcan civilian (as far as he knew) just for being Vulcan, threatened to dissect him and turn Kirk's brain into V8 juice, ordered the murder of hundreds of Organian civilians (again, as far as he knew) and was prepared to continue that policy!

As for "The Deadly Years" and "The Trouble With Tribbles", neither are useful in establishing Romulan or Klingon character. The Romulan presence in DY was limited to stock footage and their actions contrived to establish the douchebagitude of Commodore Space Douche. Klingon Captain Trelane was a minor character in a lighthearted comedy. The villains of ST-III were originally written to be Romulan, and not made very consistent before filming began; what we got was more of a Romulan-Klingon hybrid.

In exchange for throwing out the bad data above, I'll toss out "Day of the Dove" Kang's vicious torture of his prisoners of war, since he was under the influence of the Luminous Pinwheel of Hate.

Let's consider the Romulan Commander's attitude in "The Eneterprise Incident" (where the Enterprise was clearly the aggressor!) No abuse of Starfleet personnel; she even called for McCoy to treat Kirk, and returned his "corpse" to Enterprise custody intact. And you're complaining about Klingon stock footage? "Backstab" and "betray"?

Sorry, but again much of your post makes me wonder if we were watching the same series!

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Klingon Neutral Zone was established in TWOK during the Kobayashi maru..

...which further blurred the line by stating that they were in the Gamma Hydra system, which was established in "The Deadly Years" as being near the Romulan Neutral Zone. Perhaps we're supposed to think the Klingon and Romulan neutral zones are back-to-back? Geez, what a rotten neighborhood.

Even more fun; they added to the confusion in Star Trek (2009) by having Klingon "Warbirds" during the Kobayashi Maru scene. Warbirds, away teams, humans not being surprised that Romulans look like Vulcans... Damn, Nero, imagine what you would have changed if you killed both of Kirk's parents.

Did they mention Away teams in ST09? I don't recall. "Warbird" is a generic term or a translation of Klingon and Romulan word used to describe certain ships. So no big deal. I'm sure the Kelvin crew were suprised to see that Narada was manned by Romulans, but they had bigger problems at the time. A line about OMG! they look like Vulcans served no real purpose. In BOT it played into the predjudice subplot with Spock & Styles.

 

[Mistreaper]

For me they were, but I just love Klingon's. The new movie has them as both, I just hope we get to see them in the next one you know?

 

[EEE]

Let's start a "Bring Back Kor" campaign today...

...actually it's surprising we never saw him again in TOS. I always thought he was the best one of the lot...

Naw... Micheal Ansara had "The Presence" and/or intensity. Kang was the best Klingon of all time. With J.G. Hertzler running a close second with his Martok.

I personally never liked Colicos' rendition of Kor until he became the drunk Kor on DS9. Koloth was a mere clown character added for a comedic story background/setup (that and Campbell's acting was too reminiscent of his Trelane portrayal)

I never understood where this "Romulans are honorable" thing came from.

Timo, in the brief time I've lurked and been a member here, I've admired your many thoughtful and informed posts. Please don't take it personally when I say of the post above that I never knew my WTF-ometer could go to 11.

I'll grant that "Balance of Terror" involved a sneak attack, but from the rest of your statements about it I have to wonder if we watched the same episode.

Ditto. Except of course Timo well knows that Balance of Terror was a thinly veiled 'WWII Destroyer vs Submarine' story and "sneak attacks" are what submarines did (and was in fact their only chance).

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's a sneak attack because it happened in UFP space, during peacetime as test of a new weapon (the plasma weapon) in order to provoke a war. The Romulan Commander pretty much says this and is not thrilled. But he follows his orders as a good soldier must.

 

[EEE]

I meant the fanbase. The Klingon forehead debate became iconic to the point that even DS9 riffed on it,

And that DS9 "riff" was pure genius!!! (Shame they attempted the prequel retconn.)

but the Romulans got very little traction on the topic. I've seldom seen debates about it, while I remember the volumnious discourses on the Klingons of old.

I think we were all too tired of the previous debates...? All the fun of attempting to explain a bigger budget away had been used up?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I never understood where this "Romulans are honorable" thing came from.

Hints in TOS and TAS, and the rest from "fanon" fanfic over about 15 years, long before they bob up in TNG.

"Balance of Terror" has several references to Romulan honor and duty, and, the preference for suicide over capture.

In "The Practical Joker" (TAS), IIRC, Kirk worries about how the Romulans will cope with losing face when they are the victim of practical jokes.

Suddenly, with ST III, it's Kruge and Valkris talking about honor, duty and a seeming ready acceptance of death to save face. Because that material was originally intended for Romulans.

I recall a friend of mine, who wrote Klingon fanfic, being absolutely horrified by a line in the ST IV novelization that Maltz committed suicide soon after his incarceration in a Vulcan detention cell, between ST III and ST IV. She asked, "What does McIntyre think he is - a Rom?"

Romulans are scheming bastards, totally devoid of what one would call honor in a human society.

That's the point. When you profess to always doing the honorable thing you are often covering or excusing actions that others would deem as less than honorable. Like in Earth politics.

 

[Praetor]

The great Romulan/Klingon personality exchange makes me sad.