"I like the new movie better..."

[Pauln6]

Well, Khan had very limited experience with space battles so this error is less out of character than you think.

No way. Space being 3D is absolute basic common sense. It's not something you learn or forget, it's as basic as it gets. Even if, by some impossibly stupid one-in-a-billion fluke he forgot (which would make a further joke of his "superior intellect"), Khan would have been reminded when he first had Reliant change course to intercept the Enterprise that this was not Space Invaders, and the controls consisted of more than "left", "right" and "fire".

And "protomatter" was the reason David got the Genesis effect to work at all, it doesn't explain how it made a planet out of nothing but (perhaps) Nebula gas. It was designed to turn a moon into a class-M planet, not create mass from nothingness.

A star exploding with very little warning in a universe where we've seen weapons and phenomena that can cause similar effects is nothing next to this. Really.

I don't think Khan 'forgot' that space was 3-dimensional, simply that in the nebula, when his sensors were limited, he was flying around searching on a broadly Y-axis pattern. Kirk was doing the same so he changed. It's sillier that Kirk managed to get the drop on him so quickly but spending 18 hours flopping around in a nebula while they repaired the ship would have muted the action somewhat.

Stars and planets are formed from the contents of nebula gases ordinarily aren't they? The nebula would have to be pretty big to have enough mass for a planet though. The star probably had to be there already (for Regula to have a source of gravity to orbit) but I would have thought that the gravitational pull of a star would have dispersed the nebula? The nebula must be close to regula because they reach it at impulse power in a matter of minutes don't they? It would have been better if they'd fled at warp speed for a bit and had to shut their engines down due to damage. It's the same issue as Delta Vega in NuTrek with the story glossing over travel times. The real world physics doesn't look great to me but I'm a lawyer not a physicist so don't take my word for it.

 

[Agenda]

Intelligence isn't everything. It takes years to become well-practiced in starship combat. This was Khan's first battle. Ever. And he was facing Kirk, one of the greatest of all.

 

[Psion]

Either V'Ger's name was coincidentally identical to the visible letters on the smudged name-plate, or that the aliens who built that impossible large starship just lacked the necessary thumb power to wipe off the space grime (or were just too fucking lazy).

Neither way makes a damn bit of sense.

Exactly. Psion's attempt to "explain" this is just unmitigated fan bullshit. Makes no sense at all. It's just a lousy, illogical and foolish script.

Ouch. Tactful and polite as ever. Alright, howzabout this: V'Ger didn't even have a name until it materialized the patterned Ilia in the sonic shower. She gave it the name V'Ger based on the machine's own recollection of its condition and her alien knowledge of Earth's history and written language.

The point is that no one ever saw the aliens who built the support ship around Voyager VI. They're all speculative explanations for V'Ger's name. But the idea that the aliens couldn't read through a little space dust just strikes me as stupid and I never even thought that was supposed to be the source of the name.

 

[Pauln6]

Alright, howzabout this: V'Ger didn't even have a name until it materialized the patterned Ilia in the sonic shower. She gave it the name V'Ger based on the machine's own recollection of its condition and her alien knowledge of Earth's history and written language.

The point is that no one ever saw the aliens who built the support ship around Voyager VI. They're all speculative explanations for V'Ger's name. But the idea that the aliens couldn't read through a little space dust just strikes me as stupid and I never even thought that was supposed to be the source of the name.

I like the cut of your jib - and I don't mean that in a sexual way. Ilia was intended to communicate with the carbon units so it makes perfect sense that it would be her perception of V'ger that is used to interact with the other carbon units and we know that she was programmed with certain information. It's only when they start communicating with it on the correct frequency that V'ger even pauses to consider that there is more to the carbon units than can be obtained from data patterning them. It doesn't need a designation until that point and it makes perfect sense if Ilia understands that some kind of designation will be of use.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Nope, no one writing the thing ever thought of that.

It was a stupid, superficial gimmick designed to provide a "clever" reveal...as I believe Ellison, again, wrote in 1980 the script was full of the kinds of cheats you see in low-budget, hurry-up Movie-of-The-Week stuff but that really were lame for such an elaborate and long-gestating production intended for the big screen.

Trek storytelling doesn't get much worse than ST:TMP. A little worse on occasion, but not much. The fact that it's arguably more high-minded or intellectually ambitious (however superficial the thoughts) doesn't make it a tighter or better story than Abrams's movie. The opposite is true.

 

[Dukhat]

But the idea that the aliens couldn't read through a little space dust just strikes me as stupid and I never even thought that was supposed to be the source of the name.

What?! The plaque clearly reads "V***GER*" (asterisks represent where the dust is). You seriously mean to tell me that you don't think the aliens got the name "V'Ger" from this, especially since this is the whole implication of the scene and Kirk essentially states this out loud?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

What?! The plaque clearly reads "V***GER*" (asterisks represent where the dust is). You seriously mean to tell me that you don't think the aliens got the name "V'Ger" from this, especially since this is the whole implication of the scene and Kirk essentially states this out loud?

That was the explicit intention of the writers, and that's how the reveal was played, shot and edited. There's no ambiguity, and it doesn't matter if a fan decides to "think" otherwise.

 

[Pauln6]

Nope, no one writing the thing ever thought of that.

It was a stupid, superficial gimmick designed to provide a "clever" reveal...as I believe Ellison, again, wrote in 1980 the script was full of the kinds of cheats you see in low-budget, hurry-up Movie-of-The-Week stuff but that really were lame for such an elaborate and long-gestating production intended for the big screen.

Trek storytelling doesn't get much worse than ST:TMP. A little worse on occasion, but not much. The fact that it's arguably more high-minded or intellectually ambitious (however superficial the thoughts) doesn't make it a tighter or better story than Abrams's movie. The opposite is true.

A highly subjective opinion, although I would have to agree that TMP is anything BUT tight storytelling. They were writing the script as they went so it's more of a surprise that the film was as good as it was. In its context and at the time it was made I found TMP to be visually striking and captivating if far too slow in the latter half of the movie.

The flip side is that NuTrek inserted pointless scenes like the CGI beasties and the brewery scene to keep things bubbling along at a fast action-packed pace regardless of how silly or irrelevant.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

A highly subjective opinion...

All opinions are subjective, and it's hard to imagine a fannish opinion about Trek that isn't "highly" so - we sure don't see them here.

 

[YARN]

A highly subjective opinion...

All opinions are subjective, and it's hard to imagine a fannish opinion about Trek that isn't "highly" so - we sure don't see them here.

Keep on trollin' Dennis

 

[Pauln6]

A highly subjective opinion...

All opinions are subjective, and it's hard to imagine a fannish opinion about Trek that isn't "highly" so - we sure don't see them here.

True, there is subjective and there is highly subjective.

I try to stick to being simply subjective when voicing my opinions because I think it's easier for more people to empathise with my perspective. There are some films that are so terrible that it is hard for anybody to find anything good in them: Highlander 2 for example, I mean wtf? However, every Trek movie has good and bad elements in varying proportions. In TMP, I thought that Spock's arc was handled very well. In NuTrek it had good pace and everybody was very pretty.

 

[Warped9]

There are some films that are so terrible that it is hard for anybody to find anything good in them: Highlander 2 for example, I mean wtf? However, every Trek movie has good and bad elements in varying proportions.

Agreed, at least on the first six films. I didn't like anything of the TNG films. As for ST09, well...

 

[Psion]

Alright, howzabout this: V'Ger didn't even have a name until it materialized the patterned Ilia in the sonic shower. She gave it the name V'Ger based on the machine's own recollection of its condition and her alien knowledge of Earth's history and written language.

The point is that no one ever saw the aliens who built the support ship around Voyager VI. They're all speculative explanations for V'Ger's name. But the idea that the aliens couldn't read through a little space dust just strikes me as stupid and I never even thought that was supposed to be the source of the name.

I like the cut of your jib - and I don't mean that in a sexual way. Ilia was intended to communicate with the carbon units so it makes perfect sense that it would be her perception of V'ger that is used to interact with the other carbon units and we know that she was programmed with certain information. It's only when they start communicating with it on the correct frequency that V'ger even pauses to consider that there is more to the carbon units than can be obtained from data patterning them. It doesn't need a designation until that point and it makes perfect sense if Ilia understands that some kind of designation will be of use.

Ah, thank you! I doubt the writers actually thought about it this way, but it certainly does fit perfectly with what's presented on screen and the character concepts, doesn't it? I appreciate such thoughtful, considerate, and even civilized discussion.

Nope, no one writing the thing ever thought of that.

It was a stupid, superficial gimmick designed to provide a "clever" reveal...as I believe Ellison, again, wrote in 1980 the script was full of the kinds of cheats you see in low-budget, hurry-up Movie-of-The-Week stuff but that really were lame for such an elaborate and long-gestating production intended for the big screen.

Trek storytelling doesn't get much worse than ST:TMP. A little worse on occasion, but not much. The fact that it's arguably more high-minded or intellectually ambitious (however superficial the thoughts) doesn't make it a tighter or better story than Abrams's movie. The opposite is true.

I'm sorry, Dennis, but neither you nor Harlan are particularly privy to the thought processes that went behind the characterization of V'Ger. You're both simply speculating the worst and presenting it as fact. Unless you have better evidence than hearsay, your non-fan wanks carry no more weight than anyone else's spit-balling.

But the idea that the aliens couldn't read through a little space dust just strikes me as stupid and I never even thought that was supposed to be the source of the name.

What?! The plaque clearly reads "V***GER*" (asterisks represent where the dust is). You seriously mean to tell me that you don't think the aliens got the name "V'Ger" from this, especially since this is the whole implication of the scene and Kirk essentially states this out loud?

Yep. I seriously mean to tell you that I don't think the aliens got the name "V'Ger" from this. I think the intention was that they re-designated it after launch and the big reveal with Kirk was intended to be his character's realization (and with it, the audience's) of exactly what he's dealing with. It's stupid to think the aliens can decipher the operating system of the original probe's six different computer systems, but can't figure out that there's a bit of space dust on the plaque.

I should say that's what I used to think. My new idea that V'Ger wasn't even named until the Ilia probe materialized works so well that I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that was the intent. Of course, I also entertain Dennis' -- er -- Harlan's hypothesis, too, but it's such an intentionally cynical view of things.

What?! The plaque clearly reads "V***GER*" (asterisks represent where the dust is). You seriously mean to tell me that you don't think the aliens got the name "V'Ger" from this, especially since this is the whole implication of the scene and Kirk essentially states this out loud?

That was the explicit intention of the writers, and that's how the reveal was played, shot and edited. There's no ambiguity, and it doesn't matter if a fan decides to "think" otherwise.

Really. Were the quotes around the word "think" really necessary? Is it so hard to be civil?

 

[Kelso]

My new idea that V'Ger wasn't even named until the Ilia probe materialized works so well that I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that was the intent.

Your idea is still terrible. It requires a being who has learned all that is learnable in the universe to be incapable of reading its own dirty name-tag.

 

[Psion]

My new idea that V'Ger wasn't even named until the Ilia probe materialized works so well that I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that was the intent.

Your idea is still terrible. It requires a being who has learned all that is learnable in the universe to be incapable of reading its own dirty name-tag.

No ... it requires a being who has learned all that is learnable in the universe to be disinterested in having a name. Fits in rather nicely with the "is this all that I am" theme, don't you think?

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Sometimes I wonder if some people's idea of a perfect Star Trek film is two hours of technical data scrolling up the screen.

We all know STXI's flaws, but no matter how many times you all repeat them, exactly how many people change their minds about it? None. You either liked the film or not.

The fans who like STXI happily ignore or explain away the issues the film has, just the same as they have for the previous 10 films and 700 episodes.

To quote Gene Roddenberry: 'Allow me the right to have my own inconsistencies in my creation.'

Yes, happily ignore the dumbing down of Trek. As long as it's got lots of flashing light, lens flares and explosions who needs plot, characterization or story logic? It made a ton of money so it must be good!

Obviously, you haven't see the same picture all of us have, and are still wanting Berman & Braga back. If so, why don't you stick to watching TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise? Oh yeah, I forgot; like everybody else, you hated B&B's guts, and wished that they were gone! Except now, you still aren't satisfied. Poor baby.

Even Revenge of the Sith made way more than Trek did and it is widely regarded as the worst of the Star Wars movies. I guess even good Trek is worse than bad Star Wars.

Only to you, is the prequel trilogy bad: I've got a thesis/essay that says otherwise.

Trek

is dying a slow death and this is the wrong way to save it. Book sales are down. Shelf space is way down while Star Wars space is up. The toy tie-in to XI were a major flop. There's no halo effect. No uptick in interest in Trek overall. So, let's dumb it down some more. Maybe a few more explosions will save it.

What about all the explosions in TWOK, TSFS, TUC, Generations, First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis? Guess those just passed you by, and you didn't give a flying frack, but the ones in Trek XI did. Seems to me you need to really watch the movie again.

And as for the toys..big deal. Movie merch hasn't been doing well generally, anyway.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

This is pretty depressing. So any movie with less than top of the line special effects(which of course is EVERY MOVIE after a certain period of time has passed) is dismissed?

TWOK still holds up very well IMHO. It was made relatively on the cheap, especially compared to TMP, but handles its story and themes with intelligence.

No wonder we get pretty-looking blockbusters with mediocre story and no heart like Trek09.

09 wasn't even that pretty looking. Laying aside most design issues, the cinematography was harsh and gritty. The FX sequences were overexposed and sometimes nauseating with their insistence on constantly spinning the camera and MTV style ADHD-editing. And don't get me started on the frakking lens flares.

I liked 09 for what it was...a different take on Trek. But there is no way in Hell that it's better than the first 10 films, certainly not visually.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

People older than 35 don't suffer from ADHD. It was caused by MTV. This is a fact.

No, it is not. I was diagnosed with ADHD in grade school (years before MTV). I even spent a year on Ritalin for it.

There is some evidence to suggest that ADHD is linked partially to playing computer games and cruising the net.

Any linkage is associative rather than causal. Computer games and 'net surfing appeal often to people whose attention spans are already shortened, because they give those persons the entertainment experience they desire.

 

[Char Aznable]

Jesus Christ. I can't believe the shit the one above me quoted. To think there are still, "people", who spout such ignorant, anti-intellectual crap in this day and age.

Anyway, despite their pathetic butthurt, the new Trek film was both a financial and critical success despite their claims to the contrary, which pretty much amount to, "LOL NO U!"

 

[darkwing_duck1]

And "protomatter" was the reason David got the Genesis effect to work at all, it doesn't explain how it made a planet out of nothing but (perhaps) Nebula gas.

No perhaps about it. That is exactly what happened. The Genesis wave, unconfined to an existing planetary surface and gravity well, spread out through the Mutara Nebula and sucked it in to use as mass to make the Genesis Planet.

It was designed to turn a moon into a class-M planet, not create mass from nothingness.

Then it's fortunate it wasn't asked to do that. (See above).

A star exploding with very little warning in a universe where we've seen weapons and phenomena that can cause similar effects is nothing next to this. Really.

Praxis exploded with little warning too. Though if you read Countdown carefully, it implies strongly that they did indeed have warning, but they chose to believe that Spock could save them.