"I like the new movie better..."

[RAMA]

Sometimes I wonder if some people's idea of a perfect Star Trek film is two hours of technical data scrolling up the screen.

We all know STXI's flaws, but no matter how many times you all repeat them, exactly how many people change their minds about it? None. You either liked the film or not.

The fans who like STXI happily ignore or explain away the issues the film has, just the same as they have for the previous 10 films and 700 episodes.

Yes, happily ignore the dumbing down of Trek. As long as it's got lots of flashing light, lens flares and explosions who needs plot, characterization or story logic? It made a ton of money so it must be good! Both Transformers movies made much more that XI did so they must be even better films! Even Revenge of the Sith made way more than Trek did and it is widely regarded as the worst of the Star Wars movies. I guess even good Trek is worse than bad Star Wars.

Trek is dying a slow death and this is the wrong way to save it. Book sales are down. Shelf space is way down while Star Wars space is up. The toy tie-in to XI were a major flop. There's no halo effect. No uptick in interest in Trek overall. So, let's dumb it down some more. Maybe a few more explosions will save it.

You obviously haven't looked at DVD/Bluray sales have you? As for the dumbing down...did you notice the critical reaction..it was better than for ANY previous ST movie...the SCRIPT was nominated for a Writer's Guild Award...no Trek movie has before. It was a clever story thatwill no doubt be expanded on in the sequel...I'd enjoy the ride if I were you, because the "dead" ST franchise will probably make over half a billion on that one in theaters alone.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

ST09 is the current "sensation" that will fade soon enough. And over the years subsequent viewings will show it to be the juvenile piece of fluff that it is as it won't age well. Abrams concocted a film that is perfectly in keeping with the industry's push to appeal to an uncritical youth audience. It's popular now, but it will fade rather quickly when the next sensations come along.

Unfortunately for your inaccurate critique, "adult" professional film critics and numerous industry organizations disagreed with you. The track record of many recent franchise blockbusters would also probably lead us to believe you are wrong about the performance of the next ST movie as well. But its ok, you've been proven wrong before and will be again.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

^^ I've seen plenty of crap over the years that critics went gaga over. It ain't a convincing argument.

Abrams wasn't interested in making Star Trek. He wanted something more like Star Wars but dressed passingly as Trek---he essentially says that flat out on the dvd. And so a lot of other folks seem to like the SW treatment. A lot of those that made the film popular couldn't tell you what Star Trek was if their life depended on it. They thought it looked familiar enough and that was good enough for them. It means squat.

But if you put ST09 side-by-side with TWOK or the bulk of TOS then it's as plain as day how shallow and outright bad it is. Time will do what dissenters aren't presently able to: bury this thing in the dustbin of movie history.

 

[sonak]

Actually, yeah it was the film critics' fawning over it even more than Trek fans' reactions to Trek09 that really baffled me. I remember thinking after seeing the film opening day and being underwhelmed, that the movie was going to get some mixed reviews, with an overall consensus of it being mediocre.



Instead, critics went NUTS over it! It seemed like almost every major reviewer gave it three and a half or four stars! Even if you could appreciate it as an empty but entertaining summer blockbuster, it wasn't deserving of the massive praise heaped upon it.


Have standards sunk that low?

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Critics love JJ Abrams.

 

[Pauln6]

It's a balance. The Bourne movies involve complex plots but exposition is limited because we have a risk-taking solo character who doesn't have to explain what he is doing all the time. A single line of technobabble-lite dialogue could have covered the most obvious plot holes I think. The script just needed a bit of tweaking. The focus on Spock and Kirk is traditional (with Uhura and McCoy essentially filling in the supporting roles intended for Rand and McCoy in the original concept) but not mandatory in the new franchise. However, if they want the scripts to appear smarter, they do need to use supporting characters where appropriate. Not a single fan thinks that Troi deserved to pass her commander's exam because she struggled to understand that being in command involves sending people to their deaths. The writers are giving Kirk a risk-taking version of Troi's command style. No way would I have approved a promotion to Captain based on that aspect of his personality but it's easy to see why the wish fulfilment aspect of his character was popular. That doesn't mean the movie would have been less popular if the character and consequences had been more rounded. The outcome could have been better if some of Kirk's crew had died on his watch (Keenser anyone?) to represent the double-edged sword of command like in TWoK. Olsen doesn't count - he wasn't under Kirk's command and he was obviously as dumb as the person who gave only one crewman the explosives. Trek works better if it isn't a bubble-gum plot.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yes, because the six billion deaths in the movie already just wasn't enough.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes, because the six billion deaths in the movie already just wasn't enough.

Six million rather stupid deaths is actually too many. The Vulcans had no functional sensors, no listening posts, no orbital defences, no defence vessels, no vessels able to fly out of the jamming zone to send a detailed distress signal despite the Narada being stationary while using the drill, and no viable planetary evacuation procedures. If we had seen evidence of Nero thwarting these attempts to escape it could have made the Vulcans look less dumb but it could also have affected the 'surprise' aspects of the plot so they brushed them aside and ignored them, making the Vulcans appear like idiots.

Mission Impossible was ruined for me in the opening scenes by the stupid illogical, amateurish deaths of all but Emilio Estevez' character (in spite of being told to scatter, one character gets into the car when the agent who is acting as the driver isn't in it and Kristen Scott Thomas goes into a dark alley on her own knowing full well that person she's following has probably been attacked). If you are going to kill someone, give them the death they deserve! At least Olsen deserved to die.

I do understand that things have to trimmed for the sake of the narrative flow and not everyone will agree on what should stay and go. For example, I really liked the plot about Ripley's daughter in the Director's cut as it added a dimension to her character but I disliked the inclusion of Newt's family finding the derelict as I felt it stripped away some of the mystery later on in the film. I'm sure others had other opinions.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Who says Nero didn't already smash the Vulcan ships and orbital defences? The debris field over Vulcan was emormous. Nerada has the ability to block communications (hence Uhura's "not recieving comminucations of any kind in the area") - even when they figured out what was going on there would have been no way to get a message out. You really think Nero's gonna let anyone fly out of the jamming zone before he's done? All Starfleet knew was that Vulcan was experiencing seismic disturbances before communication was cut off/the jamming was activated.

I don't see the need some people have to be taken by the hand and have every single detail explained to them in detail. Just because there were no Vulcan defences seen doesn't mean they weren't there, it means the lunatic in the super ship made them not there. A long explanation was not required. Viewers are meant to figure it out for themselves.

 

[Pauln6]

Who says Nero didn't already smash the Vulcan ships and orbital defences? The debris field over Vulcan was emormous. Nerada has the ability to block communications (hence Uhura's "not recieving comminucations of any kind in the area") - even when they figured out what was going on there would have been no way to get a message out. You really think Nero's gonna let anyone fly out of the jamming zone before he's done? All Starfleet knew was that Vulcan was experiencing seismic disturbances before communication was cut off/the jamming was activated.

I don't see the need some people have to be taken by the hand and have every single detail explained to them in detail. Just because there were no Vulcan defences seen doesn't mean they weren't there, it means the lunatic in the super ship made them not there. A long explanation was not required. Viewers are meant to figure it out for themselves.

The Narada is stationary once it starts drilling. Ships, even ones without warp drive, could have left the atmosphere on the far side of the planet and flown far out of range of the Narada's weapons before being spotted and far out of the jamming range. The Narada would have had to break off drilling, thus freeing communications to stop them. I did figure this out for myself and I'm a lot less smart than the dumbest Vulcan. You can indeed brush this aside and say, well, Nero stopped them, but it doesn't stop you wondering exactly how he could have stopped every ship launched from an entire planet unless he has an unlimted supply of torpedoes and torpedo launchers after his Klingon fight, the Vulcans were very stupid and rather illogical.

I am making the assumption that it is the drill that blocks communications because they are freed up when it stops. It is possible that they have jamming capabilities in addition to the drill which they don't use while they are using the drill but as I said before, it's a slippery slope (or a house of cards) trying to explain away all the holes as one plug often contradicts another.

 

[F. King Daniel]

All I'm gonna say is that Nerada was armed with far smarter weapons than the usual Star Trek "beams or blobs that go in a straight line". Ships on the far side of the planet would not have been safe. And since Nerada's from the 24th century, shouldn't it have replicators and thus, energy permitting, an infinite supply of missiles?

Besides, Trek's been leaving critical planets unguarded since 1979. The 2009 film isn't the only one with "issues" when you look too closely.

 

[Pauln6]

All I'm gonna say is that Nerada was armed with far smarter weapons than the usual Star Trek "beams or blobs that go in a straight line". Ships on the far side of the planet would not have been safe. And since Nerada's from the 24th century, shouldn't it have replicators and thus, energy permitting, an infinite supply of missiles?

Besides, Trek's been leaving critical planets unguarded since 1979. The 2009 film isn't the only one with "issues" when you look too closely.

We've seen Borg weapons and we've seen Romulan weapons but nothing that can go more than a few hundred thousand KM before detonating. Plus, if the Narada's sensors can see through planets, Kirk's plan would not work later in the movie. A warp-powered ship could have fled the system and warned the Federation easily if it had taken off from the far side of the planet and gone to warp almost immediately and Vulcan must have an awful lot of warp powered ships.

I was an advocate of giving Nero a motley crew of multi-racial escapees from Rura Penthe (or just allied to his cause in the intervening 25 years). They could have had additional ships on borard and those ships would have been mobile enough to pick off escaping Vulcan ships. It wouldn't have required any real explanation, the crew and ships would have been visually interesting, the Narada wouldn't have had to be so ludicrously powerful for a simple mining vessel, and it would have been a more sensible way to plug this hole and a few others.

I totally agree though, the 'only ship in the quadrant' excuse is an over-used and rather ludicrous plot device. It makes more sense when we are talking about Starfleet vessels, less so if we are talking about warp capable vessels with communications arrays. To suggest that Vulcan wouldn't have had multiple vessels available is silly.

 

[YARN]

The TOS Enterprise is reputed (on-screen) to have the ability to destroy a planet. This probably just means scorching the surface, but the practical effect (genocide) would be the same.

Since the Narada is from hundreds of years into the future, it is not hard to see why defenses crumbled. Just imagine the HMS Victory leading a fleet of English ships against a modern aircraft carrier, or an attack sub, or a cruiser. Land defenses would fare about the same.

That stated TWoK is STILL better than Nu-Trek...

 

[F. King Daniel]

We've seen Romulan and Borg weapons, but Nerada's weaponry is obviously different. I wasn't saying Nerada could see through planets, I was suggesting that his "smart" missiles could orbit the planet and home-in on any escaping ships.

But most of these arguments could be applied to other Star Treks, too. Why was the Enterprise the only Federation ship availabe to intercept V'ger? Where was the rest of Starfleet when the Xindi attacked Earth twice (only to magically appear after Archer defeated the space-Nazis)? Why was the Sol system defended only by four tiny shuttles in "Best of Both Worlds"? Why do the Borg with their capabilities only ever send one ship at a time to Earth? Why didn't Janeway use a timed bomb on the Caretaker's array and go home in one episode? Why didn't Voyager use the transwarp tech dialed to warp 9.99999999? All of these and many more are massive plot holes, yet fans ignore them or gloss them over just as the majority do the ones in STXI. It's no different.

 

[Pauln6]

We've seen Romulan and Borg weapons, but Nerada's weaponry is obviously different. I wasn't saying Nerada could see through planets, I was suggesting that his "smart" missiles could orbit the planet and home-in on any escaping ships.

But most of these arguments could be applied to other Star Treks, too. Why was the Enterprise the only Federation ship availabe to intercept V'ger? Where was the rest of Starfleet when the Xindi attacked Earth twice (only to magically appear after Archer defeated the space-Nazis)? Why was the Sol system defended only by four tiny shuttles in "Best of Both Worlds"? Why do the Borg with their capabilities only ever send one ship at a time to Earth? Why didn't Janeway use a timed bomb on the Caretaker's array and go home in one episode? Why didn't Voyager use the transwarp tech dialed to warp 9.99999999? All of these and many more are massive plot holes, yet fans ignore them or gloss them over just as the majority do the ones in STXI. It's no different.

But again, it's a slippery slope, and you are now attributing abilities that we don't see on screen and have never seen on screen before. Not guided missiles but missiles that orbit the planet and have sensors built in to let them attack ships as they leave the atmosphere.

Some people criticise this film and view the others through rose-coloured spectacles. I enjoyed them all in spite of their flaws. I spoke up at the notion that Kirk was correct in his analysis and his plan against Nero and got carried along from there. In short, Kirk's plan was pretty dumb. This movie does have a couple more flaws that some of the other movies though.

 

[Landed]

As in previous Star Trek movies, Trek 09 has its share of plot holes, canon violations, over-acting, and just plain WTF moments. That being said, Quinto and Urban were excellent, Saldana did well with what she had, and Pine is in serious danger of becoming the Joey Lawrence of movies. I was entertained, though. I think I got my money's worth and I think the movie, despite some glaring faults, did a great job of setting up the Nu-Trek Universe. I would have preferred a complete reboot, so the alternate universe stuff had me bristling. I'm very optimistic that the sequel will be so much better now that this whole "alternate timeline" thing is out of the way.

But how will this movie hold up against the best of what came before? I don't know. I'll have to see how I feel about it in a few years.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The distress call from Vulcan didn't mention it's defenses being destroyed. It talked about mysterious seismic disturbances. The Enterprise and the other ships were sent to investigate. No mention of ships being destroyed. No mention of a big honking ship in orbit. Seismic disturbances. Sulu screws up and delays their departure by a few moments which is just enough time for all the other ships to be destroyed.

 

[Pauln6]

The distress call from Vulcan didn't mention it's defenses being destroyed. It talked about mysterious seismic disturbances. The Enterprise and the other ships were sent to investigate. No mention of ships being destroyed. No mention of a big honking ship in orbit. Seismic disturbances. Sulu screws up and delays their departure by a few moments which is just enough time for all the other ships to be destroyed.

Yup and nobody can work out what caused the seismic disturbances either - if it was the drill their communications would have been affected BEFORE the earthquake. Best guess from me is that the Romulans tried deploying red matter while cloaked close to the planet but it did little more than cause an earthquake so they uncloaked to activate the drill. That explains how they got to Vulcan witout being spotted and could explain why they were unshielded when they got to Earth but doesn't really explain why none of the Vulcans managed to escape, why they didn't stay cloaked until Earth Orbit, or why they delayed their journey by days to obtain Earth's defence codes if they could sail past them (a line confirming that the cloak was damaged while interogating Pike would have sufficed here).

It is better to admire the decent performances of all the leads and take the plot holes in your stride.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The Narada didn't have a cloak IIRC. I don't recall even a mention of it being offline or destroyed. And why would a mining vessel have a cloak anyway?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Or just whine about it online constantly for the next 18 months!