I know why things are different before Nero comes back!

[JuanBolio]

Once the Narada came through and started blowing shit up the existence of this new universe was set in stone. Spock MIGHT'VE been able to ESCAPE it, but he couldn't prevent it. As such, there are two universes - one in which Vulcan exists, and one in which it does not. As Spock had already done tremendous good in the prime universe, it seems logical that he'd stay and try to make the new one better for his people - finding a new homeworld, rebuilding society, etc etc. He couldn't erase it, so he tried to make the best of it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Or... watch Enterprise Season 3. The Earth Zindi conflict was never supposed to be apart of history.

We don't know that.

 

[Jeri]

I don't know, but I'd guess that would have to be the Tactical Officer, played by Sean Gerace...

Thank you. "Who was that regular-eared guy?" "I don't know, but I like him!" I don't remember that helmsman from the link, but I remember Sean Gerace shouting. I'd pay attention.

...Dumped by Girlfriend? SLINGSHOT!

I just listened to "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" again yesterday, and some reason needs to be worked up why it was only possible to use the slingshot three times.

 

[FlapJoy]

The evidence that gives credence to this theory is as follows: If you notice Captain Picard's wall of ships named Enterprise we see no representation of Archer’s NX-01 Enterprise, even though we see the Space Shuttle and the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise. (I know Enterprise wasn’t on the air yet, ok? Stick with me) -So what if when Picard and the gang go back to protect Cochran’s first warp flight from the borg; Cochran, to honor his friends from the future and their gallant ship, decrees that the first warp 5 ship (when it’s built 100 some years later) be called Enterprise, when perhaps it was not initially christened that name in the original timeline and didn't appear on Picard’s wall of ships !! Another interesting note is that First Contact is the movie that depicts Picard smashing all his little gold ships in a rage against the machines (Borg frustration) perhaps as a symbolic statement that everything can change, including Enterprises legacy… giving further evidence that timelines can be, and have been, altered many times. Nothing is set in stone -or shiny gold plastic.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If you notice Captain Picard's wall of ships named Enterprise we see no representation of Archer’s NX-01 Enterprise

Uh...how would you expect there to be? Enterprise, AS A TV SERIES, had not yet been thought of by the writers.

even though we see the Space Shuttle and the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise.

There were two aircraft carriers with that name. You wouldn't say that one didn't exist just because its model wasn't there, would you? Not all Enterprises were represented on that wall. Or in the rec room scene in ST:TMP.

 

[JuanBolio]

There were two aircraft carriers with that name. You wouldn't say that one didn't exist just because its model wasn't there, would you? Not all Enterprises were represented on that wall. Or in the rec room scene in ST:TMP.

Far from it. There were several sailing vessels named Enterprise - perhaps a dozen or more - yet only one is ever seen.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Exactly! So why are people constantly bitching about the NX-01 not being there?

Not only are the writers not prescient - how dare they not include ships from a TV series that hadn't been written yet - but there's only so much space they have to allocate. They're always having to pick and choose which Enterprises to include.

 

[FlapJoy]

no representation of Archer’s NX-01 Enterprise, even though we see the Space Shuttle and the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise. (I know Enterprise wasn’t on the air yet, ok? Stick with me)

As you may not have noticed, I addressed the fact the TV show didn't yet exist... I'm speaking in the context of the Star Trek universe, it's playful speculation... get over yourself.

 

[FlapJoy]

^ Exactly! So why are people constantly bitching about the NX-01 not being there?

Not only are the writers not prescient - how dare they not include ships from a TV series that hadn't been written yet - but there's only so much space they have to allocate. They're always having to pick and choose which Enterprises to include.

I'm not bitching, I'm using my imagination (just like Sci-Fi writers do)... try it some time.

 

[USS Triumphant]

As you may not have noticed, I addressed the fact the TV show didn't yet exist... I'm speaking in the context of the Star Trek universe, it's playful speculation... get over yourself.

Yes. He did.

One of the biggest problems in the world is people who want to argue with things when they haven't bothered to make themselves clear on what it is they are arguing with.

Give 'em hell, FlapJoy.

 

[M'Sharak]

Do the Romulans in general and Nero in particular know about the slingshot? If they did wouldn't they be slingshotting like mad? Lost the war? SLINGSHOT!!!! Shizon kills the Senate? SLINGSHOT!!! Dumped by Girlfriend? SLINGSHOT!

Its kinda like Back to the Future II - if you slingshot forward from an altered past, you wind up in an altered future. Though I imagine that the Narada and the Jellyfish each did a slingshot AROUND the black hole at warp to go back in time - going THROUGH it would've destroyed them. If all the black hole did was send things back in time, that huge supernova would've just come pouring through into 2233.

Nope. Slingshot time-travel is not an available option.

BobOrci: In our Universe, as long as I am here, you can’t just slingshot around the sun and linear time is a misconception from the middle part of the 20th century.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/18/orc...kmovie-transcript-of-last-weeks-impromptu-qa/

Nero and the Romulans aren't allowed to know about slingshotting.

Black-hole time-travel has, presumably, rules of its own, and there has been some speculation in other threads here as to what those might be. Apparently one rule would have to involve a temporal/transdimensional superdupernova filter (which is fun to say, but not nearly as much fun as "chrono-synclastic infundibulum".)

 

[T'Cal]

The evidence that gives credence to this theory is as follows: If you notice Captain Picard's wall of ships named Enterprise we see no representation of Archer’s NX-01 Enterprise, even though we see the Space Shuttle and the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise. (I know Enterprise wasn’t on the air yet, ok? Stick with me) -So what if when Picard and the gang go back to protect Cochran’s first warp flight from the borg; Cochran, to honor his friends from the future and their gallant ship, decrees that the first warp 5 ship (when it’s built 100 some years later) be called Enterprise, when perhaps it was not initially christened that name in the original timeline and didn't appear on Picard’s wall of ships !! Another interesting note is that First Contact is the movie that depicts Picard smashing all his little gold ships in a rage against the machines (Borg frustration) perhaps as a symbolic statement that everything can change, including Enterprises legacy… giving further evidence that timelines can be, and have been, altered many times. Nothing is set in stone -or shiny gold plastic.

Officer thinking, Ensign! I posted a similar notion some time ago, specifically the part about Cochrane convincing Henry Archer to name the ship ENT as a secret homage to Picard and his ship.

 

[darkshadow0001]

As much as I've enjoyed STXI (seen it 6 times), I had a wee problem with the "alternate timeline" explanation covering all of the differences, especially those that occurred before Nero arrives to attack the Kelvin. I mean, why are the Kelvin's crew's uniforms and insignia so different from what we've seen in TOS? Once Nero arrives, all bets are off, of course. The writers can do whatever they want since we would then have an alternate timeline.

Right now, I'm watching First Contact and it dawns on me:

Clearly, after Picard and crew meddles in the mid-21st century and leaves for the 24th century, the time they go to is an altered timeline, which began back on April 4, 2063 when they followed the Borg back in time. This explains the changes (mistakes in canon?) that occurred in ENT. In addition, it means that the events in the opening scenes of STXI are a part of this new timeline (if not some other one, if other beings have travelled back before 2233; who knows?). Now there are those that may say that it was predestined that the Enterprise-E would go back to 2063 to do what it did; I disagree.

While I think this new movie does have some effect with First Contact, I still think it's a completely different universe altogether. This movie most noteably takes place after Nemesis, since they travel back in time through the black hole. Or is that how they did it? I'm a bit confused at how they traveled back. I know it wasn't through normal means... ugh!

 

[SG-17]

Do the Romulans in general and Nero in particular know about the slingshot? If they did wouldn't they be slingshotting like mad? Lost the war? SLINGSHOT!!!! Shizon kills the Senate? SLINGSHOT!!! Dumped by Girlfriend? SLINGSHOT!

Its kinda like Back to the Future II - if you slingshot forward from an altered past, you wind up in an altered future. Though I imagine that the Narada and the Jellyfish each did a slingshot AROUND the black hole at warp to go back in time - going THROUGH it would've destroyed them. If all the black hole did was send things back in time, that huge supernova would've just come pouring through into 2233.

It is quite possible that the nature of a Red-Matter induced black hole is different from a naturally formed one, which would explain the relatively fast evaporation time.
Alternatively it could be that the ships attempting to go to warp when being pulled in, the warp field acted as an insulator against the immense tidal forces that would normally have torn the ships apart.

 

[diftorhehsmusma]

I'm new to all this, so please be gentle....
but I have an honest question: why does it necessarily have to be an alternate universe? There are differing opinions in the scientific community about whether such things would happen, and it's all theoretical anyway. But from a writing perspective, I thought it was pretty explicit that it was the same universe, or least Spock Prime seemed to think so. I am very nearly done with my first full viewing of TOS, and overall, I really enjoy the treatment of the characters in this new film, which is the heart of the whole thing, is it not? I love them in the original, but they are so.... well, Spock makes me sad, with his inability to come to terms with his own true nature. Instead of doing so over the course of decades we see him lose the luxury of long-term denial, which seems to me to be a good thing. And Kirk is forced to accept a modicum of humility, in the only way I suppose he could, from birth.
So - and I ask this with all humility and earnestness - why is it necessarily an alternate universe, rather than just a new timeline? Is it because so many have spent so much brow sweat over the canon that they would rather rationalise than see their timeline rewritten? Or is there really a solid reason? I have seen the new movie more times than I care to admit, and i have yet to detect anything to suggest this. As I said, it seems to be spelled out the other way.
This is my first post, please be kind. I am looking for education here.
Thanks!

 

[pookha]

the writers wanted an alternate universe to still be able to pull in canon as they
wished but the make the fates of the characters a mystery.

as for..

The evidence that gives credence to this theory is as follows: If you notice Captain Picard's wall of ships named Enterprise we see no representation of Archer’s NX-01 Enterprise, even though we see the Space Shuttle and the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise.

archer's enterprise is on the wall with the wwll enterprise.

time travel already seemed different whether one used the guardian or sling shot.
that this would have its own set of differences insnt suprising at all.

and some time back i came up with the theory that you might have already had branches into alternate reality as far back as assignment earth in tos.

 

[zenfakor]

It looked like the Nurse from TNG on the deck of the Kelvin.

 

[Arpy]

It seems to me that the alternate universe thing was a way to do a retcon yet still honor the fans of the original by leaving it intact. Who knows...maybe in the original one an alternate universe Spock retired into its past.

It makes sense, and also explains why there's no explanation for how they not only traveled into an alternate universe, but also one of the PAST.

EDIT: Okay so I visited the link and see that it is possible to visit the past but only in another dimension? But if you can bend time and space to create or visit an alternate universe set in your past, why not be able to go back to your own? Or jump back to your own's past after going to the past of an alternate one? Maybe some 22nd century physicist will come up with the theoretical equations for that one and by the 23rd, the slingshot would be a viable option. To me, it's still the writers trying to legitimize the choice they made when it's really not necessary to do more than say this is what we decided to do, and hey, our current physics suggests its more realistic than what Trek's done in the past. ...I need to relook at what they said: it's late and maybe this is what they said.

One particle displaced creates an alternate universe, doesn't it? So Spock, Nero, just the storm that brought them there already created an alternate universe just by existing: the moment the storm showed up, it showed up in an alternate universe, right? And then that one continued to branch off with every other possibility...Nero destroys the Kelvin or doesn't, George Kirk sacrifices himself or doesn't...

 

[Irvy]

I had a theory the other day that when Nero went back in time to the Kelvin, the changes in the timeline would have rippled forward and back. For example, assuming certain key events remain unaltered, such as Q encountering a federation starship, throwing them infront of the Borg, and the attack on Earth by the Borg in FC still happens, resulting in a Star Fleet crew going back in time to Cochrane's time to stop it, that crew will not be the TNG crew we know and love, it will be an altered crew from the new timeline, which means they would have a completely different effect and influence on Cochrane's pre-ENT time, so at the moment Nero appeared, he's automatically arriving in an altered timeline, the changes would be instantaneous, forwards and backwards.

I think I need to lie down in a darkened room after that...

 

[FlapJoy]

I had a theory the other day that when Nero went back in time to the Kelvin, the changes in the timeline would have rippled forward and back.

YES !! We've seen so much time travel in Trek... so if things change in one point in time it might negate, and create, other future starfleeters traveling back in time and changing things again and therefore creating a new universe BEFORE Nero and his boys show up!!
That's the beauty of it! And now we don't need to be bogged down with previous canon and can sit back and enjoy "NuTrek" like a breath of fresh air, I call it the Fabreeze theory.