I knew they were getting desperate when...

[Unicron]

I kind of agree with Captain X; I've never made any secret of the fact that "Regeneration" is one of my least favorite eps, and one that I honestly felt shouldn't have been made. It's hard to find the Borg scary when they only assimilate a few people and Phlox, who has Magical Alien Immunity (popular in the early seasons), and they take a ridiculously long time to adapt to 22nd century weapons, whereas the drones in "Q Who" adapted to 24th century phasers very quickly, and the first drone (non-adapted) took several hits to kill on its own.

Mr. Sussman, for what it's worth, I sincerely hope you won't mind the criticisms of myself and some of the other fans here. I personally don't think "Regneration" was an act of desperation or anything on the part of the producers. I just don't think it was a great idea to begin with. I also wish the Klingons hadn't been used either, simply because they became somewhat overexposed on TNG and DS9.

 

[SFRabid]

JiNX-01 said:
...
As for Enterprise, I suggested earlier that they were damaged by being frozen, but I forgot the Borg can function without environmental suits in space, so the cold probably wouldn't affect them. But the explosion of the sphere probably would.

I think that is just another plot hole. The Borg are not just mechanical, they are also organic. Living tissue does not fair well in space and there have been times that they did not survive in open space.

I think that one reason the Borg in Enterprise were weeker is resources. They took a early model shuttle and had to use refined materials of that time period. A basis of the story was "can Enterprise and the crew destroy them before they convert the shuttle into something more advanced than anything in the current time period." That is one thing that made the episode good and believable. It started as shuttle vs. Enterprise but the Borg aquired ship kept getting stronger and stronger.

 

[KayArr]

Triptacular said:

Remember, Manny Coto hadn't come on board yet. He was the one that brought the fresh ideas and the solutions that tied Enterprise to the later (timeline) series. If he'd been there from the beginning, I have no doubt Enterprise would have gone seven seasons.

Not everyone thinks using the series to tie into TOS is a "fresh idea"--I'll take seasons 1 and 2, thanks very much! I'm not sure a modern show should be tied so closely to a show like Trek that is "oh so very, very 60s." If it had started with season 4, perhaps there would have been no wider appeal at all. I'm a long time Trek fan--watched TOS as a kid in syndication in the 70s, then the others as they cam on the horizon, and I like Enterprise just fine--it's my favorite Trek series. The Augments especially seemed to be nothing more than a "bring in Brent Spiner piece"--the Enterprise crew didn't really much of anything to do.

 

[KayArr]

Trekwatcher said:

Triptacular said:

GrowlingDog said:
Bottom line is, if you were to ask Star Trek fans at the beginning of Ent Season 1 what loose ends they would like tied up in Enterprise, i doubt many would mention the Borg 1st. Yet, that story came before a lot of other more important ones. In my personal opinion, that seemed a little desperate.

Remember, Manny Coto hadn't come on board yet. He was the one that brought the fresh ideas and the solutions that tied Enterprise to the later (timeline) series. If he'd been there from the beginning, I have no doubt Enterprise would have gone seven seasons.

I think too much emphasis is placed on the Manny Coto era of ENT. I have just rewatched the entire series *again* and was amazed at how well the rest of ENT played on rewatching. I think ENT was trying to create a different feel than the other shows, and in this regard they succeeded. This may not have been a feel that many fans loved right away, but I have to give them credit-they took trek in another direction. Plenty of gems in the non-Coto seasons. Some clunkers, to be sure, but good stuff that cannot be ignored.

Well said, couldn't agree more.

 

[Captain X]

I think ENT was trying to create a different feel than the other shows, and in this regard they succeeded.

Really? Felt a lot like VOY to me, at least the first couple of seasons did anyway.

 

[Noname Given]

Captain X said:
Mr. Sussman gave us some good episodes, but this one I think the show could've done without. While some people seem to think this made the Borg "scary" again, I couldn't disagree more. VOY weakened them so one ship could have a chance at beating them where a fleet of them failed against just one cube, and ENT only made it worse by weaking them further so they could be beaten by technology 200 years out of date from where the actual drones came from. Yes, you can argue that they didn't have as much to work with, but everything still looked and functioned the same way, they just gave ENT's crew a bunch of freebees so they could win. And don't even get me started on the lameness of them just not mentioning their name and somehow that keeps continuity intact. No, the thing that made the Borg scary is that they were practically unbeatable. They just kept coming and coming despite everything 24th century weaponry could throw at them, and for them it was like swatting flies. I mean, a fleet of almost 40 ships barely even slowed them down, that is scary.

Bringing the Borg into ENT was less lame than the Ferengi, but it was still pretty inappropriate to the time period, and the show would've been better off without it. I mean, it wasn't horrible like ANiS or The Seventh, or even bad, just inappropriate to the show.

I'll never understand this whole 'They never mentioned their name' as a continuity violation. If you watch Q-Who; the Borg NEVER refered to themselves by name in ANY of their communications during that episode. Picard found out what they were called by Guinan after asking her to look at the incoming ship.

My point: There's PLENTY of evidence to show that the Borg don't always announce themselves the same way.

 

[KayArr]

The colors, lighting, sets, problems, characters, everything was different from Voyager. I like Voyager, too, but Enterprise didn't remind me of Voyager. Archer was a captain like no other--for good and for ill. Trip and T'pol certainly don't have a Voyager counterpart, and there was nothing like 7 or 9 on Enterprise, either. I would agree, though, that Enterprise and Voyager are more alike than say, Enterprise and TNG--some of the big sweeping two-parters, etc.

 

[Captain X]

Noname Given said:
I'll never understand this whole 'They never mentioned their name' as a continuity violation. If you watch Q-Who; the Borg NEVER refered to themselves by name in ANY of their communications during that episode. Picard found out what they were called by Guinan after asking her to look at the incoming ship.

My point: There's PLENTY of evidence to show that the Borg don't always announce themselves the same way.

Those were Borg of an earlier era, and my point is that these Borg were the same ones who did identify themselves, from a period when they pretty much always announced who they were and what there intention was.

 

[Captain X]

KayArr said:
The colors, lighting, sets, problems, characters, everything was different from Voyager. I like Voyager, too, but Enterprise didn't remind me of Voyager. Archer was a captain like no other--for good and for ill. Trip and T'pol certainly don't have a Voyager counterpart, and there was nothing like 7 or 9 on Enterprise, either. I would agree, though, that Enterprise and Voyager are more alike than say, Enterprise and TNG--some of the big sweeping two-parters, etc.

I'm not talking about the sets, I'm talking about the type of stories told and the general style of the storytelling - it just felt a lot like watching VOY, right down to how the characters tended to get treated.

 

[KayArr]

Captain X said:

KayArr said:
The colors, lighting, sets, problems, characters, everything was different from Voyager. I like Voyager, too, but Enterprise didn't remind me of Voyager. Archer was a captain like no other--for good and for ill. Trip and T'pol certainly don't have a Voyager counterpart, and there was nothing like 7 or 9 on Enterprise, either. I would agree, though, that Enterprise and Voyager are more alike than say, Enterprise and TNG--some of the big sweeping two-parters, etc.

I'm not talking about the sets, I'm talking about the type of stories told and the general style of the storytelling - it just felt a lot like watching VOY, right down to how the characters tended to get treated.

Can you give a couple examples?

 

[Noname Given]

Captain X said:

Noname Given said:
I'll never understand this whole 'They never mentioned their name' as a continuity violation. If you watch Q-Who; the Borg NEVER refered to themselves by name in ANY of their communications during that episode. Picard found out what they were called by Guinan after asking her to look at the incoming ship.

My point: There's PLENTY of evidence to show that the Borg don't always announce themselves the same way.

Those were Borg of an earlier era, and my point is that these Borg were the same ones who did identify themselves, from a period when they pretty much always announced who they were and what there intention was.

'Borg or an earlier era'? Come on; it was less than 18 months between Q-Who and The Best of Both Worlds - we're NOT talking a long time here in that instance at all.

Plus, there were only TWO 24th century Borg as part of that collective; and they both had been frozen for 100+ years at that point, not to mention being caught in an anti-matter blast. The rest of that Borg collective were the Terran Researchers, and the alien freighter crew. Who's to say that given all this, these were more the Borg 'of a different era' that you mention.

 

[AstroSmurf]

I realize I am probably in the minority here but I loved "Regeneration". Not only was the episode scary, its frenetic drive was a nice change to the show's normal graceful pacing. Granted, it had a few problems but I am willing to overlook them and enjoy the ride. (And with a little imagination, it fits nicely into canon too.) This episode also has one of my favorite scores from the show.

But on the other hand, the Ferengi episode bugs the hell out of me. I have always felt like they were being crammed into the show rather than making a natural, subtle appearance. I guess tone and execution really can have a lot to do with what an audience will buy into.

As for the idea of desperation, I never got that impression. Sometimes I had the feeling that there might have been to many cooks in the kitchen though.

 

[Unicron]

I don't really consider the lack of a name to be a continuity violation, I just think it was stupid to assume the fans would ignore the potential continuity problems inherent in "Regeneration" if they didn't say "We are the Borg." At least in the Ferengi ep that made some degree of sense, because it's clear the Federation gained some knowledge of their existence prior to the "official" first contact in "Last Outpost."

I mean, I liked the MU eps personally and wished we could have seen more writing like that. But I also wish there was a clear resolution of what happened to the Defiant, because of the potential continuity problems with "Mirror, Mirror."

 

[Captain X]

KayArr said:
Can you give a couple examples?

Sure, T'Pol was treated a lot like Seven of Nine and Phlox was treated a lot like Neelix, just off the top of my head as the two biggest examples.

Noname Given said:

'Borg or an earlier era'? Come on; it was less than 18 months between Q-Who and The Best of Both Worlds - we're NOT talking a long time here in that instance at all.

So? One still came after the other.

Plus, there were only TWO 24th century Borg as part of that collective; and they both had been frozen for 100+ years at that point, not to mention being caught in an anti-matter blast. The rest of that Borg collective were the Terran Researchers, and the alien freighter crew. Who's to say that given all this, these were more the Borg 'of a different era' that you mention.

I don't see why that would make any difference as to why they conveniently wouldn't mention their name. After all, like I said, they were still 24th century drones with no reason to do so. And yes, even the 22nd century victims were still 24th century drones, because they were assimilated by 24th century drones and were outfitted with 24th century technology.

 

[RandyS]

JiNX-01 said:
I don't think Regeneration is evidence of desperation. It would have been in the works before fans left in droves during the mid-season 2 slump.

I think they just thought it would be a fun episode to do that plays off the destruction of the sphere in First Contact.

And frankly, I liked it.

Me too. The Borg episode was a natural follow up to First Contact.

The Xindi arc on the other hand, THAT was a pointless, pointless, POINTLESS act of desperation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

CaptJimboJones said:

GrowlingDog said:
Bottom line is, if you were to ask Star Trek fans at the beginning of Ent Season 1 what loose ends they would like tied up in Enterprise, i doubt many would mention the Borg 1st. Yet, that story came before a lot of other more important ones. In my personal opinion, that seemed a little desperate.

If Trek fans actually had any say in a Star Trek series, we'd be in a lot of trouble ...

Can you imagine that conversation?

Paramount: "OK, Trek fans, we're planning a new series and you guys get to decide what it's about! What do you think?"

9er4ever!: "It's got to be completely arc-based, with lots of shows about alien religions, and big huge wars, yeah! Screw any other ideas!"

TOSfanatic: "I demand standalone episodes that fit in completely with Star Trek's canon - which, of course, consists solely of the first two seasons of TOS and about 13 minutes of that one TAS episode with young Spock, and the first 2/3 of TMP. Anything else is HERESY!"

FanWank: "Set it in the 55th century after the fall of the Federation! Make it dark and gritty like BSG! I will denounce anything else!"

VoyagerLover: "Boobs! The show must have many many BOOBS!"

ConventionGoer: "IT's clear that the people should get what they've been screaming for since TOS - a Captain April series! And you have to use 1960s-era sets and effects and costumes, or I'll cry and scream!"

You get the idea.

No mention of Captain Sulu series??? Your post is not CANON!!!

 

[RandyS]

^For what it's worth, I'd watch all of that.....

 

[RandyS]

Captain X said:

I think ENT was trying to create a different feel than the other shows, and in this regard they succeeded.

Really? Felt a lot like VOY to me, at least the first couple of seasons did anyway.

Agreed.

 

[SlyCardie]

ChristopherPike said:
Good point. "The Expanse" blew me away but like plenty of later DS9 episodes, there almost seems to be too much going on. The writers knew time was nearly up, so they dived into the Trek toybox. After gorging on TOS (with a side order of TNG) during Season 4, Enterprise would've needed to go on a diet had there been another year. Which means going back to it's own identity, undoubtedly leading to cancellation away.

I sort of agree, Enterprise became too busy, like the writers were trying too hard to impress Trek fans. However, I think they could have sustained the series past season 4. Maybe that's just me being optimistic, but I thought Coto was doing a great job.

 

[cooleddie74]

ialfan said:
Actually Regeneration explains why Seven's parents were looking for the Borg and had heard of them some 10 years before "Q Who?".

That, combined with rumors and innuendo told over the decades from Borg survivors like the El-Aurians(Guinan, Martus Mazur, Dr. Soran).