I knew they were getting desperate when...

[GrowlingDog]

But didnt they also say at the end of regeneration that these creatures (the Borg) would be something we wouldn't have to worry about for 200 years. I would have thought that alone would make them keep a record of everything they new and make picard and crew acutely aware of the dangers and the abilities (assimilation) of them when they started the show at Farpoint station. Also, I would have thought Doctor crusher would have all of Flox's data on the borg as he managed to get better.
And hey, i love the show. That's why i'm watching the whole thing from start to finish for the 5th time. I guess at the end of some episodes i just think, hang on, that didn't seem right.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Trekwatcher said:
Regeneration worked for me. I liked the conceit of the ENT crew having less knowledge than the viewer.

Me, too.

Hello, Mike Sussman! I'm watching E2 on HDNet right now. It's one of my very favorite episodes of Enterprise.

 

[Nebusj]

Skywalker said:
Sounds like something Section 31 might have intercepted and suppressed until they'd decided Starfleet was ready to know about...

Why would they? They don't have any reason for the existence of the Borg to be suppressed, and very few threats can be realistically dealt with by suppressing knowledge of them.

 

[GrowlingDog]

O'k all praising aside, Mr Susmann, if you do come back to this thread maybe you could tell us in hindsight why you think Enterprise did not succeed. Was it a good move to set it in a time before TOS? Where do you think it went wrong? Was it well cast (i never could get used to Dominic Keating as Reed).
I wish i could sit back and watch season 7 of Enterprise but i and others in this forum are obviously part of the Star Trek fan minority or i would be watching it. Why do you think so many fans of Star Trek tuned out?
Once again, i love your work, especially in season 4. "Mirror Darkly" was great stuff.

 

[Captain X]

Mr. Sussman gave us some good episodes, but this one I think the show could've done without. While some people seem to think this made the Borg "scary" again, I couldn't disagree more. VOY weakened them so one ship could have a chance at beating them where a fleet of them failed against just one cube, and ENT only made it worse by weaking them further so they could be beaten by technology 200 years out of date from where the actual drones came from. Yes, you can argue that they didn't have as much to work with, but everything still looked and functioned the same way, they just gave ENT's crew a bunch of freebees so they could win. And don't even get me started on the lameness of them just not mentioning their name and somehow that keeps continuity intact. No, the thing that made the Borg scary is that they were practically unbeatable. They just kept coming and coming despite everything 24th century weaponry could throw at them, and for them it was like swatting flies. I mean, a fleet of almost 40 ships barely even slowed them down, that is scary.

Bringing the Borg into ENT was less lame than the Ferengi, but it was still pretty inappropriate to the time period, and the show would've been better off without it. I mean, it wasn't horrible like ANiS or The Seventh, or even bad, just inappropriate to the show.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I liked Regeneration. It wasn't great but I thought it was pretty good. As far as Borg episodes it falls somewhere in the middle between the giants like "The Best of BOth Worlds", "Q Who?", "Scorpion", "I, Borg" and the fairly decent stuff like "Dark Frontier" and "Unimatrix Zero". It was certainly the best or one of the best season two episodes along with Carbon Creek, Minefield, Dead Stop, The Catwalk, Cease Fire, Future Tense, First Flight and The Expanse.

I'm not one of those fans who felt that VOY massacred Borg continuity and needed this episode to repair it. The Hansens knowing of the Borg twenty years prior to "Q Who?" still makes sense without trampling over that TNG episode.

Same goes for the Borg snooping in the Neutral Zone. You could argue the assimilation of the Hansens led the Borg to our region(the Neutral Zone was specifically mentioned in Dark Frontier)

My favorite portions occurred early on-the teaser and first act all taking place with the researchers in the Arctic treating these beings as new unknown lifeforms and all the observations they make about them. I personally would have liked if it were possible to let the entire episode take place in the Arctic without the regular cast.

I also found the manner in which they brought the Borg into the 22nd century was inspired. It didn't feel forced or contrived and instead wisely seized upon a pre-existing opening left by First Contact. Now that's smart thinking.

I also thought the idea of leveling the playing field between the Borg and the Enterprise was fairly well thought by having the Borg assimilate the transport. But I didn't quite buy the idea that Reed and Archer were able to get off so many shots before the Borg adapted. That was pushing it.

And a few things might have been made clearer by including some dialogue i.e. why the Borg stopped overtaking the NX and transported back to the Arctic transport. And the way the Borg name was left out from their opening hail. I could have even bought the idea that HOshi cut off the transmission at that moment--"We are the <<fritz>>"--rather than simply omitting it.

And there were a few nice nods such as the shot of the assimilated Tarkalean ignoring Reed when he tells her to stop messing with the circuit panels. It reminded me strongly of a similar scene in "Q Who?". And the unsttling nature of a rogue Borg ship attacking reminded me of TNG's "Descent". I don't know if these were intentional but I hope they were since they came to me right away as I watched it.

 

[Kalen Archer]

moocey said:

GrowlingDog said:
I knew they were getting desperate when they introduced the Borg in Regeneration S2E23(i think). Not only did it ruin all of the history of the Borg so far but the Federation was meant to have no idea who the Borg were yet in Regeneration, the lab boss guy told the junior lab guy to send Star fleet all the information they had straight away. That would mean when Picard and Co ran into them, they would have been on the Enterprise computer already wouldn't they? I think it was a desperate attempt to do what they did at the end of season 3 of Voyager but failed terribly. As a side note, i didnt like when they introduced the Ferengi in season 1 (i think) either. When did you think they had become desperate.

And this looks like a desperate attempt at trolling.

The ep dealt with the borg in the only possible way ENT could have credibly done so.

GrowlingDog, and anyone else, is entitled to voice their criticism. By dismissing an opinion you don't like as trolling" you have committed the offence yourself and have been warned as such.

Any comments on the warning should be made by PM.

 

[Captain X]

I guess I wasn't as impressed with the First Contact tie-in. I mean, it sorta works, but its stretching it. We're to believe that not only did such large pieces of debris survive that fireball destruction in the movie, but drones on board survived along with it, all the way through re-entry and a hard landing in the arctic to the point that they were still functional just after bering thawed out.

I have the same problem with their adaptation of the transport being what allows the ENT crew to beat them. I mean, they'd just been through all that, they grab a ship, and really that gives them the building blocks that they need in the same way they were able to assimilate parts of the E-E. The tech level looks the same, and the dones themselves are still from the 24th century (and apparently just convienently decide not to announce who they are even though they did in the movie). And just as a hint of their capabilities, they took slow ship and made it fast by somehow souping up the warp drive. And again there's the matter of the phaser shots. 24th century phasers seem to be a lot more advanced than 22nd century phase pistols by far, and at least one thing they have on them is that their frequency can be adjusted to make it harder for the Borg to adapt. Again, these are still 24th century drones, and even the people they assimiliated from the 22nd century are going to have the same capabilities because they were assimilated by 24th century nanoprobes. yet somehow the phase pistols are able to have a lot of success with them. Then there's Phlox's resistance to assimilation, and his ability to cure himself from assimilation using the imaging chamber. I mean, in VOY, the Doctor had his hands full attempting the same thing, and one would think in his vast medical database he might've had something about this in there.

Re: the Hansens. First off, it's Voyager, and they didn't exactly have a great track record either when it came to continuity, even inter-series, inter-season, and at one point inter-episode. But if you really wanted to, you could explain the Hansens knowing to even go looking for the Borg because of stories from El-Aurians who apparently came to Federation space in the late 23rd century.

Re: Section 31. Frankly, the idea that they suppressed information about the Borg doesn't hold all that much water. Think about it. Even though these are supposed to be the bad guys, the only reason they're bad is because of the Machiavellian "ends justify the means" attitude they had. Their mandate was still to protect the Federation and its interests, so considering how large the threat the Borg presented them, and the fact that they knew the Borg had sent a message, why wouldn't they have wanted the Federation to be pushed to be ready in case the Borg ever showed up again? Sure, it might explain why they wouldn't want the Hansens or anyone else poking their noses around to actively look for the Borg, because they'd want as much time to get ready as possible, but it doesn't explain why there would literally be no information about them when the E-D eventually ran into them, even if they didn't know their name.

 

[GrowlingDog]

Bottom line is, if you were to ask Star Trek fans at the beginning of Ent Season 1 what loose ends they would like tied up in Enterprise, i doubt many would mention the Borg 1st. Yet, that story came before a lot of other more important ones. In my personal opinion, that seemed a little desperate.

 

[pookha]

Nebusj said:

Skywalker said:
Sounds like something Section 31 might have intercepted and suppressed until they'd decided Starfleet was ready to know about...

Why would they? They don't have any reason for the existence of the Borg to be suppressed, and very few threats can be realistically dealt with by suppressing knowledge of them.

well considering they wouldnt be a real threat for a long while and the twisted way section 31 seems to think.

just imagine the impact on the earth cargo fleet that this cyber race was runnning around transforming people into machines.



so hush it up especially since so much concrete evidence disappeared with the borg (there is a shot when the rescue team arrives showing the borg cleared most of the area)

and knowledge and information does get lost in time.
we are already seeing it with the way data is stored is being changed so rapidly.

so it could be shunted off into some obscure part of starfleet security until someone decided to maybe check it out and sent the raven out.

with the immeditate threats of the romulans,orions, klingons an obscure threat some time off in a couple of centuries just dwindles in the back ground.

 

[Triptacular]

I didn't like Regeneration at all. I don't think the Borg belonged in this series, period. As for getting desperate, the WWII/Nazi crap that led off season four. The season should have started with a Home two-parter.

The Augments stuff was crap too, and poorly acted crap at that.

B&B were desperate with the stink-bomb know as A Night in Sickbay. When the creative well is dry, we're left with a horny Capt. and boob jokes, pathetic.

My opinions and I'm welcome to them.

Love ya, Mr. Sussman. Thanks for dropping by!

 

[Triptacular]

GrowlingDog said:
Bottom line is, if you were to ask Star Trek fans at the beginning of Ent Season 1 what loose ends they would like tied up in Enterprise, i doubt many would mention the Borg 1st. Yet, that story came before a lot of other more important ones. In my personal opinion, that seemed a little desperate.

Remember, Manny Coto hadn't come on board yet. He was the one that brought the fresh ideas and the solutions that tied Enterprise to the later (timeline) series. If he'd been there from the beginning, I have no doubt Enterprise would have gone seven seasons.

 

[SFRabid]

GrowlingDog said:
But didnt they also say at the end of regeneration that these creatures (the Borg) would be something we wouldn't have to worry about for 200 years. I would have thought that alone would make them keep a record of everything they new and make picard and crew acutely aware of the dangers and the abilities (assimilation) of them when they started the show at Farpoint station. Also, I would have thought Doctor crusher would have all of Flox's data on the borg as he managed to get better.
And hey, i love the show. That's why i'm watching the whole thing from start to finish for the 5th time. I guess at the end of some episodes i just think, hang on, that didn't seem right.

I've learned over the years that you can over-analyze and pick apart any science fiction book or show. All that does in the end is take the enjoyment out of it. It was an enjoyable episode with a nice amount of suspense. When it was over I was glad I watched, and that is what I want most out of television.

 

[JiNX-01]

startrekwatcher said:
But I didn't quite buy the idea that Reed and Archer were able to get off so many shots before the Borg adapted. That was pushing it.

Borg aren't indestructible. It's possible that spending a century frozen would impair some functions.

 

[GrowlingDog]

JiNX-01 said:

startrekwatcher said:
But I didn't quite buy the idea that Reed and Archer were able to get off so many shots before the Borg adapted. That was pushing it.

Borg aren't indestructible. It's possible that spending a century frozen would impair some functions.

Yea true, but do you think the Borg became even less scarier after the show. I really liked the Borg when they were unbeatable, they were more frightening but with Voyager and Enterprise their strength seemed to wain. Which would seem to go against the whole adapt and grow stronger theme. When we 1st saw the Borg they ignored humans on their own ship if they weren't a threat. I would have loved to have seen them adapt and attack the 1st humans that came on board their ship in a later show. think they could have done it in a way that would have scared the %^&* out of me too. Which is what i loved about them in the 1st place.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

GrowlingDog said:
Bottom line is, if you were to ask Star Trek fans at the beginning of Ent Season 1 what loose ends they would like tied up in Enterprise, i doubt many would mention the Borg 1st. Yet, that story came before a lot of other more important ones. In my personal opinion, that seemed a little desperate.

If Trek fans actually had any say in a Star Trek series, we'd be in a lot of trouble ...

Can you imagine that conversation?

Paramount: "OK, Trek fans, we're planning a new series and you guys get to decide what it's about! What do you think?"

9er4ever!: "It's got to be completely arc-based, with lots of shows about alien religions, and big huge wars, yeah! Screw any other ideas!"

TOSfanatic: "I demand standalone episodes that fit in completely with Star Trek's canon - which, of course, consists solely of the first two seasons of TOS and about 13 minutes of that one TAS episode with young Spock, and the first 2/3 of TMP. Anything else is HERESY!"

FanWank: "Set it in the 55th century after the fall of the Federation! Make it dark and gritty like BSG! I will denounce anything else!"

VoyagerLover: "Boobs! The show must have many many BOOBS!"

ConventionGoer: "IT's clear that the people should get what they've been screaming for since TOS - a Captain April series! And you have to use 1960s-era sets and effects and costumes, or I'll cry and scream!"

You get the idea.

 

[SFRabid]

CaptJimboJones said:
... You get the idea.

LOL. Yep.

Sort of like pulling all the fan fiction into one series and trying to keep cannon.

 

[Captain X]

Depends on the fans. You're basically putting forward the idea that the lowest common denominator is representative of the fandom as a whole. And for the record, I've seen fan fiction that managed to work with canon that was still better than most everything that was actually on the show.

 

[JiNX-01]

GrowlingDog said:

JiNX-01 said:

startrekwatcher said:
But I didn't quite buy the idea that Reed and Archer were able to get off so many shots before the Borg adapted. That was pushing it.

Borg aren't indestructible. It's possible that spending a century frozen would impair some functions.

Yea true, but do you think the Borg became even less scarier after the show.

Well, we're not talking about a very big collective here.
Borg: My designation is One of Two.
Borg: Hey, why do you get to be One?
One: We'll assimilate these scientists then you can be Two of Five. Would that make you happy?

The 22nd century humans are dealing with the Borg the way they would deal with anyone. What choice do they have? And the fact that they were able to stop a small contingent, doesn't mean the Borg aren't still scary.

The truly scary part about the Borg is this: You only have to bump into one on a bad day and you are assimilated.

I really liked the Borg when they were unbeatable.

Which means you only liked the Borg in "Q Who?" and "Best of Both Worlds." I don't blame you, really. I thought the Borg were the best threat ever created in SciFi. Relentless. Merciless. The cubes are self-repairing. Billions of minds acting as one. They were great. Better than the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians, the Breen, the Dominion all wrapped into one (hmmm... I wonder if a changling could have been assimilated?)

They were more frightening but with Voyager and Enterprise their strength seemed to wain. Which would seem to go against the whole adapt and grow stronger theme. When we 1st saw the Borg they ignored humans on their own ship if they weren't a threat. I would have loved to have seen them adapt and attack the 1st humans that came on board their ship in a later show. think they could have done it in a way that would have scared the %^&* out of me too. Which is what i loved about them in the 1st place.

The problem with Voyager was excessive use of the queen.

Frankly, I wish they had never created her. Or at least resisted creating a run-of-the-mill seductive, manipulative bitch. It would have been so much more interesting if she had stuck to the program: You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

As for Enterprise, I suggested earlier that they were damaged by being frozen, but I forgot the Borg can function without environmental suits in space, so the cold probably wouldn't affect them. But the explosion of the sphere probably would.

 

[Trekwatcher]

Triptacular said:

GrowlingDog said:
Bottom line is, if you were to ask Star Trek fans at the beginning of Ent Season 1 what loose ends they would like tied up in Enterprise, i doubt many would mention the Borg 1st. Yet, that story came before a lot of other more important ones. In my personal opinion, that seemed a little desperate.

Remember, Manny Coto hadn't come on board yet. He was the one that brought the fresh ideas and the solutions that tied Enterprise to the later (timeline) series. If he'd been there from the beginning, I have no doubt Enterprise would have gone seven seasons.

I think too much emphasis is placed on the Manny Coto era of ENT. I have just rewatched the entire series *again* and was amazed at how well the rest of ENT played on rewatching. I think ENT was trying to create a different feel than the other shows, and in this regard they succeeded. This may not have been a feel that many fans loved right away, but I have to give them credit-they took trek in another direction. Plenty of gems in the non-Coto seasons. Some clunkers, to be sure, but good stuff that cannot be ignored.