I hope for more traditional space battles
- Thread starter Infern0
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And
That has been the standard explanation. However as mentioned up thread, red matter black holes can act like wormholes when you are able to enter them and (as mentioned in the commentary) navigate around the singularity. Buy when they ignite within an object (eg a planet) they behave as one might expect. In this case it was within the Narada which gave it no escape. This is generally confirmed by the swirling debris field before it disappears. Granted it would have been even more conclusive if the debris had "collapsed" in on itself the way Vulcan did, but from what we saw, there was nothing coherent there capable of causing further trouble.
A gifted character like nuKirk, trained by Starfleet, shouldn't have had much difficulty understanding that what was going on I feel. He saw what happend to Vulcan. Or perhaps that is something he would have learnt in his forth year at the academy? In any event, nothing was said about not being able to allow Nero a chance to escape, which would have been helpful. As it was, I got a different impression.
Oh for the love of space!
Did you not notice that that Klingon drew his weapon and was about to fire at Kirk and his party? Contrast that with the fact Kirk didn't kill the defenceless Klingon on the Bird of Prey after Kirk and young Spock beamed up to it. Besides there were two Klingons on the surface and Kirk couldn't have known which killed his son. I can't understand why these obvious distinctions are consistently not being taken into account, especially when much more dubious arguments are being raised in favour of nuKirk. They are afterall vital considerations when making moral judgements. Thanks for giving me an excuse to rewatch TSFS though. 
It is a matter of intention.
Besides, he may have caused a few "premature" deaths. Picard didn't have too many options. It was war and the Borg are not your ordinary enemy. Regarding the Queen, while it is contentious, making sure there was nothing left of the Borg may have been necessary. It was certainly sensible. And just what was the Borg Queen anyway? A remote terminal of some sort? I am sure Picard would have taken a different route if one had been available. He wasn't racist (the Borg aren't a race anyway, even though they include many races), he was pragmatic. Vengeful to the point of suicide perhaps, but he got over that didn't he?
Rarding Kirk, the whole point was he didn't sit back and watch the empire burn. His position evolved. That is a part of the optimism of Star Trek I am talking about. It is not that any one person at any given time is perfect but that but that their society as a whole is an improvement. Though the individuals usually do pretty well at conquering their demons.
No. I'm saying I understand his reaction.
Yes. Yes it is.Is that even possible?
Popcorn entertainment like Star Trek? Nothing worth losing any sleep over.
Well yes, we all understand Spock's reaction. My view is that in ST it should be questioned instead of being reinforced though. While I don't lose too much sleep over it, I do believe Star Trek is more than popcorn entertainment, until recently of course. I guess that's where we differ.
And Kirk didn't stun him because...?Oh for the love of space!
Any excuse to watch TSFS is a good one, in my book
Sensible? Hmmm. Sounds a lot like opening fire on the Narada. With the Queen (and by extension her collective) clearly crippled as she was before her spine was snapped, why didn't Picard have all the immobilized Borg rushed to sickbay and deBorgified? Many of them were his crew, after all.
He seemed over his vengeful Borg hating by "I, Borg". Major relapse in the interim.
But at that point, he would have let the Klingons burn. At the end of XI, Kirk offered to assist the crippled Narada in the hopes of making peace with Romulus. He tried!
(A) Too chancy, especially with Klingons.
(B) It doesn't work well at long distance (that's why the Enterprise doesn't stun other star ships
)(C) Stunning Klingons just makes them angry.
(D) Its dishonourable. Klingons would prefer to be dead.
(E) Kirk: Stun? Shit, I didn't think of that!
Maybe he did, after the battle, although I seem to remember that wasn't considered an option in the movie when the fighting was happening (don't make me watch that too).
The "Queen" does raise some issues, but till then the Borg were more a force of nature. Never the less, the Borg were always an on going risk, unlike the Narada, as far as I can see.
I guess having your ship almost Borgified out from under you will do that.
Prime Kirk maybe, but obviously not the Federation. Besides there is still a significant gap between "letting them burn" and "fanning the flames". Moreover it is obvious he made the offer for the wrong reasons. Ie. out of political expediency rather than humanitarianism and just how serious was it anyway. It is a very different scene to the one in "Balance of Terror" where for one thing Kirk doesn't say: "You are dying but you refuse my help? You ungrateful SOB. Fire everything!
How was he going to help anyway? Could Nero abandon ship in life rafts? Could Krik beam them off, in which case he should have done that whatever Nero wanted. These guys were just criminals not honourable enemy soliders. If there was the slightest doubt of escape you would think they would do that if they could rather than risk not killing them. On top of everything there just didn't seem time to make other than an apparently insincere offer (given what followed).
I don't believe Kirk's offer was insincere at all. If it were, he'd not have explained his reasoning to Spock. It was "either surrender, or we will make sure you can't hurt anyone else."
UFO said:
Yes, he took away those precious last few seconds of life that those guys who were going around imploding planets had coming to them.
UFO said:
If only Kirk had access to the war excuse. Damn it!
PIKE: You've declared war against the Federation. Withdraw. I'll agree to arrange a conference with Romulan leadership at a neutral location.
Yeah, anyone who thinks that Kirk's offer of rendering aid was insincere saw a different film than I did.
Kirk was willing to suck it up and render aid in the name of galactic peace, for the good of the Federation, but Nero would have none of that. And Spock's feelings on the matter, which Kirk didn't expect, weren't the deciding factor. That's the film I saw.
Kirk was willing to suck it up and render aid in the name of galactic peace, for the good of the Federation, but Nero would have none of that. And Spock's feelings on the matter, which Kirk didn't expect, weren't the deciding factor. That's the film I saw.
Don't forget Kirk's obvious glee at being able to blow Nero's shit to hell.
It's for the ADD generation of course. We're too stupid to understand anything else.
I guess I like having heroes who have human emotions. I'm sure Kirk and Spock got a bit of satisfaction accelerating Nero's trip to the next life. I'm sure Picard got a bit of satisfaction snapping the neck of the remnants of the Borg Queen.
Neither action was likely necessary but very, very human.
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Even Data fired at Kovis Fajo.
Too bad it didn't make it into the film, some people's heads would've exploded.
I've got to say, not giving a shit about the morality of Kirk blowing up the Narada.
I thought it blowed up real nicely.
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