I have a holodeck question or two

[Tosk]

So either Quark had a much bigger holosuite than the ones we usually saw

He did have at least one bigger one, if we assume Garak is speaking correctly. in Afterimage he mentions the holosuite wall being about ten metres away. That's a lot bigger than the other ones we saw.

That said, the tryouts were in Holosuite 4, which we did see in Rapture and there it was the same size as the others.
So I guess Quark got a new, large holosuite at some point between seasons five and seven and re-numbered the others.

 

[Christopher]

For me, it's just about the challenge to find a thought experiment that the 'the holodeck could maintain illusion under nearly any circumstance' proponents can't wave away easily.

That seems like hyperbole on the face of it, not needing exceptional effort to discredit. I mean, as mentioned above, we've seen people break the illusion just by throwing something at the wall. Holodecks are machines, not magic caverns, and logically they can only operate within the parameters their designers anticipated. Naturally the designers and programmers will make efforts to improve the illusions, but there will always be limits. The problem is that writers too often ignore the limits that should reasonably exist, except when it's convenient to the story to have such limits.

That's the problem with trying to argue logically about the potentials or limitations of something fictional: ultimately it's just a plot device and the way it works will change depending on the needs of the story. For instance, there is no remotely sane reason why a holodeck would need to simulate solid bullets in flight, since nobody can see them, so even if the safeties failed, there's no reason why anyone should ever get shot. Not to mention that it's insane that it's even possible to disable the safeties.

He did have at least one bigger one, if we assume Garak is speaking correctly. in Afterimage he mentions the holosuite wall being about ten metres away. That's a lot bigger than the other ones we saw.

To be precise, he said "There's a holosuite wall not ten meters in front of us," meaning less than ten meters, so it's hard to say for sure. Still, it implies something close to ten, since one would expect a tailor to be good at estimating measurements. And a claustrophobe would be more likely to understate the size than overstate it. So you could be right.

 

[at Quark's]

That seems like hyperbole on the face of it, not needing exceptional effort to discredit.
<...>
The problem is that writers too often ignore the limits that should reasonably exist, except when it's convenient to the story to have such limits.

That's the problem with trying to argue logically about the potentials or limitations of something fictional: ultimately it's just a plot device and the way it works will change depending on the needs of the story.

To me, it's all just for fun. If someone comes up with an outrageously convoluted explanation about how inconsistency X could still be defended or (in this particular case) holodeck X should be able to maintain some illusion, I might spend about the same amount of effort to come up with something they can't dismiss.

But I don't take my own arguments in that case seriously either, it's just for the fun of finding them. In fact, I don't really care about internal consistency in Star Trek in the first place. It's just entertainment to me. (I might take it a bit more seriously if I tried to do my own worldbuilding in Star Trek, but I don't).

To give another example, in the past I've tried to come up with credible (alternative) warp formulas to explain some inconsistencies. Did I really believe they had any merit or even take my own efforts seriously? Of course not, because the real answer simply is 'as fast as the plot dictates or states'.

 

[Christopher]

To me, it's all just for fun. If someone comes up with an outrageously convoluted explanation about how inconsistency X could still be defended or (in this particular case) holodeck X should be able to maintain some illusion, I might spend about the same amount of effort to come up with something they can't dismiss.

I'd just say that even if it's theoretically possible that a holodeck could be designed to cope with a certain challenge, that doesn't guarantee that a particular holodeck/suite will be advanced enough to have that feature built in. Like, some smartphones are state-of-the-art and have all the newest features, while others are older and cheaper and can't do as much, or at least not as well. Yeah, Starfleet generally has the most advanced tech, but a ship might not have had its holodecks overhauled for a year or two if there were more important priorities.

 

[at Quark's]

It seems holodeck technology (of the advanced TNG-era variety) found its way to the people very quickly and became fairly ubiquitous soon.

In early TNG, they still rave about the incredible progress that has been made since earlier holodecks, making it so life like, and this is on the flagship, so presumably the very best the Federation has to offer. Only a few years later, in DS9, arguably a much more downtrodden place, holodecks of (apparently) the same quality seem to be a rather mundane thing. Not something everyone has privately, but apparently well in reach of a somewhat 'seedy' bar such as Quark's, and its visitors consider it an everyday fact of life. Though of course the holodecks could really be the station's and simply being licensed to Quark or some such construction.
Or perhaps just the idea of high-quality holodecks on an exploration ship was new and larger bases already had them for longer.

 

[Tosk]

Though of course the holodecks could really be the station's and simply being licensed to Quark or some such construction.

In Profit and Loss, Quark asks Natima if she remembers back when he installed his first holosuite.

 

[Christopher]

Or perhaps just the idea of high-quality holodecks on an exploration ship was new and larger bases already had them for longer.

Yeah, as I said before, that's how I generally handwave it in my head.

 

[at Quark's]

Well, it doesn't matter much in the larger picture anyway.

"I actually saw ...<voice trembling with excitement> ....au-to-mo-biles!" [probably some farmer describing his London visit, around 1898]
"I actually saw ...<voice trembling with excitement> ....au-to-mo-biles!" [Jean-Luc Picard, describing his holodeck visit, 2364]

"The more things change, the more they stay the same" [Quark, 2378].

 

[Jedman67]

In “The Killing Game” it’s apparently able to make B'Elanna appear pregnant

IIRC Roxann Dawson was pregnant at the time and liked the idea of an episode where she didn't have to hide her pregnancy with loose jackets and camera cuts.

So the preponderance of evidence now outweighs early TNG's assumptions.

It seems that the quality and life-likeness of TNG's holodecks was fairly new at the time, but holodecks had already been around in some form or another since TAS.
I remember playing Myst and being amazed at how realistic the graphics were, and being impressed with how "lifelike" the animations and physics in GTA IV.
I saw the first or second Toy Story in theaters and the animation was groundbreaking. Yet just a few years later we got Monsters, Inc. with animated individual hairs and we were blown away.

Look where we are now with video games and animated films just over the past 20 years.

Holodecks simply continued to iterate and localities would simply replicate the replacement hardware necessary to upgrade.

 

[Christopher]

It seems that the quality and life-likeness of TNG's holodecks was fairly new at the time, but holodecks had already been around in some form or another since TAS.
I remember playing Myst and being amazed at how realistic the graphics were, and being impressed with how "lifelike" the animations and physics in GTA IV.
I saw the first or second Toy Story in theaters and the animation was groundbreaking. Yet just a few years later we got Monsters, Inc. with animated individual hairs and we were blown away.

Look where we are now with video games and animated films just over the past 20 years.

Holodecks simply continued to iterate and localities would simply replicate the replacement hardware necessary to upgrade.

That would be a better analogy if they hadn't been creating "holodeck" scenes with actual physical sets and locations all along, so that they always looked entirely real ("The Practical Joker" being the one exception where we can assume the resolution was less than lifelike). Generally the improvements shown in TNG/DS9 were in the interactivity and the realism of the characters' behavior.

But yeah, I remember being blown away by the animation/simulation of Violet's hair in The Incredibles, but now it looks so fake compared to what the sequel did 14 years later or whatever.

 

[JesterFace]

The universe is rewritten as it goes, and a lot of early-installment weirdness is best ignored rather than worried over.

Exactly.
In some way some episodes could be treated as if it was the only episode of the series, no backstory or sequels.
There wouldn't be any problems to fit the episode into a decades long arc.
That's pretty stupid what I just wrote there but I don't want to skip an awesome episode if there's something in it that doesn't make complete sense in an imaginary future.

 

[at Quark's]

That's pretty stupid what I just wrote there but I don't want to skip an awesome episode if there's something in it that doesn't make complete sense in an imaginary future.

Or even doesn't align with our real world. I'm not going to skip Space Seed (or its successor movie The Wrath of Khan), now that those Eugenic Wars never took place in the nineties.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

What about those musical episodes of TOS with "oh brother" (brilliant scene btw) and Spock N Roll with Spock doing rock?

 

[Jedman67]

That would be a better analogy if they hadn't been creating "holodeck" scenes with actual physical sets and locations all along, so that they always looked entirely real ("The Practical Joker" being the one exception where we can assume the resolution was less than lifelike). Generally the improvements shown in TNG/DS9 were in the interactivity and the realism of the characters' behavior.

I actually don't remember the characters ever talking about the evolution of holographic technology aside from TNG S1, so yeah attributing it to early series weirdness certainly works.

Prior to TNG, we don't see any convincing holotech on screen (TAS being animated means that the viewer can't tell how realistic holographs are supposed to be) so it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

 

[Christopher]

Prior to TNG, we don't see any convincing holotech on screen

Not Federation holotech, no, but there were instances of lifelike projections in TOS. Trelane's illusions were created by some form of advanced technology. Losira was a computer-generated hologram. The Vians were able to create a lifelike illusion of Scotty and a search party, though the method wasn't specified. And I've long believed the only way the Gideonites could've fit a replica of the Enterprise into their overcrowded world was if it was actually a holodeck.

According to The Making of Star Trek from 1968, the Enterprise rec deck was supposed to include a holographic theater for watching immersive 3D movies, or playing holographic letters from home that would've been non-interactive but convincingly lifelike. I'm surprised they never showed this, since it wouldn't have required any more special effects than a simple cut or dissolve to show the hologram appearing or disappearing, which they did often enough with telepathic illusions and whatnot. But the tech was presumed to exist already by TOS's makers, so it's a bit odd that TNG's creators chose to contradict that. Or maybe not, since it was never actually explicitly established in TOS. It was new to the audience, so it made sense to present it as new to the characters for the sake of exposition.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Did we ever see the recreation deck in TOS?
I have not watched every single episode

 

[Michael]

Did we ever see the recreation deck in TOS?
I have not watched every single episode

I assume you’re asking about the rec room, an early version of the holodeck, which we never saw on the original show but in the animated episode “The Practical Joker” (and then recently in the Very Short Treks webisode “Holograms All the Way Down”), and not the non-holographic recreation room or crewman's lounge we did see on the original show a number of times.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I assume you’re asking about the rec room, an early version of the holodeck, which we never saw on the original show but in the animated episode “The Practical Joker” (and then recently in the Very Short Treks webisode “Holograms All the Way Down”), and not the non-holographic recreation room or crewman's lounge we did see on the original show a number of times.

I meant the rec room sorry. I haven't watched every single TOS episode

We did see the recreation deck in TMP but that was the whole deck not just a room

 

[Christopher]

Did we ever see the recreation deck in TOS?

We saw part of it in "And the Children Shall Lead," the scene where they gave the children ice cream. Presumably the gym in "Charlie X" was part of the rec facilities on Deck 8.

 

[Shawnster]

Also the game room in Charlie X where Uhura sings and later the chess pieces are melted is the rec room.

The room is also featured in Last Battlefield