Even in the "Socialist Utopia" of the 24th Century we see humans being human, for better or worse.
I have a bit of a problem with La'an being bullied (And Spock in st2009)
- Thread starter hxclespaulplayer
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Let's not forget the Admiral Leyton coup plot of 2372 was hatched on a "utopian" Earth and involved Starfleet security patrolling important city streets and blood screenings of citizens.
Paranoia is a helluva drug.
The road to paradise is paved with unpaved roads for sure.
Utopia has never existed in Trek. Just part of the smugness & sheer fucking hubris of the mid 24th century from people traveling around on a 5 star hotel looking down on others. DS9 started to show the reality underneath and even Picard showed the difference between life as a Picard and life as someone else.
Uhura was not part of the main cast in TOS. The main cast of TOS was only Kirk, Spock and McCoy. And in McCoy's case, he didn't become part of the main cast until the second season.
And even by 1960s standards, Uhura's role was small and neglected compared to black people in other American TV shows of the time.
I think the best proxy for the question of whether or not children raised in a post-scarcity society would still have phenomena like bullying is to look at the internal social structures of schools whose students are from affluent communities. Private schools, upper-class schools, elite schools, upper-middle-class schools, etc. -- children from financially secure, affluent backgrounds who have never wanted for anything.
Bullying still exists in those economic classes.
I think the Federation can and does represent real, substantive progress. I personally interpret it as a democratic, market socialist society with a post-scarcity state of abundance. But I also think that the urge to bully in children flows from fundamental human instincts towards hierarchy that require the active intervention of adults espousing egalitarian cultural values to correct against -- and the autonomy it is necessary to give children so that they can grow up also means that it will be forever impossible to monitor all children live and intervene to prevent all forms of bullying pre-emptively or interrupt them all as they're happening.
So while I do think that schools can imbue children with egalitarian social values that discourage bullying, I don't believe it will ever be possible for educators to totally stamp out bullying. It's just a part of life and it will always be with us.
Bullying still exists in those economic classes.
I think the Federation can and does represent real, substantive progress. I personally interpret it as a democratic, market socialist society with a post-scarcity state of abundance. But I also think that the urge to bully in children flows from fundamental human instincts towards hierarchy that require the active intervention of adults espousing egalitarian cultural values to correct against -- and the autonomy it is necessary to give children so that they can grow up also means that it will be forever impossible to monitor all children live and intervene to prevent all forms of bullying pre-emptively or interrupt them all as they're happening.
So while I do think that schools can imbue children with egalitarian social values that discourage bullying, I don't believe it will ever be possible for educators to totally stamp out bullying. It's just a part of life and it will always be with us.
I think the big difference is bullying won't be TOLERATED, which is a big difference from now.
As with most things in the Trekian future, I'm sure bullying is far far less common, but not unheard of. Much like there's hardly any crime, or much longer average lifespans but people still get sick and die. We know Finnegan bullied Kirk, Vulcan schoolmates bullied Spock, Lal was teased and ostracized, local kids bullied B'elanna, one of the kids in the Picard prequel Short Trek bullied the other...
How edgy.
When did anything aspirational go out of style? This is like those who think Superman is boring.
Not until the 24th century.
How edgy.
When did anything aspirational go out of style? This is like those who think Superman is boring.
Not until the 24th century.
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Can we drop the gatekeeping? You keep pulling this tired canard out of your hat again and again purely to get an annoyed reaction from people. There's a word for that.
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Nope. Just an obvious fact.
Bullying can be different in the same time and place.
In my school calling names was considered bullying and was judged by our educators. Same time, in the neighbor town three to five schoolmates could fight one weaker or younger which was considered bullying but wasn't judged by local educators.
So if you ask me if I met bullying in my childhood, I can say yes. People who met serious physical abuse can say I don't even know what bullying is.
In my school calling names was considered bullying and was judged by our educators. Same time, in the neighbor town three to five schoolmates could fight one weaker or younger which was considered bullying but wasn't judged by local educators.
So if you ask me if I met bullying in my childhood, I can say yes. People who met serious physical abuse can say I don't even know what bullying is.
Bingo.
There are multiple posts up to this point I could quote (I haven't read further because there are so many), but this sums up things pretty well and simply for me.
I worked in retail for 25 years, and the one thing I saw in common was this. Multiple stores I worked at had customers who were very well off financially, and a huge chunk of them were among the most arrogant, demeaning assholes I've encountered in my life.
Regarding kids bullying other kids, I was on the receiving end of bullying as a kid. While I agree that their upbringing is a factor, it's not the sole reason why some kids bully and others don't.
Best example I can think of... my wife is the youngest of four. She's 41 now, with her oldest sibling just turning 51. They were all raised in the same household, same parents, same values, same income, went to the same schools (only difference was colleges)... yet they are all radically different people. Two of them are honestly ones I can't stand... one from almost the get go, the other became that way through a lot of situations. The other sibling is a stand up, very respectable guy. It's honestly fascinating because both her parents were good people. (Her dad passed away 5 years ago, her mom lives with us.)
My point is that even having good parents and a good environment doesn't guarantee a good person developing from that. Some people just have traits within them that others don't.
To put it simply, IDIC applies to everthing... just as there is an infinite variety of good people, there's an infinite variety of true assholes. Saying that bullies or greedy people only exist because of their environment is complete and utter bullshit, and as someone who went through bullying growing up, is damned insulting.
And using STAR TREK as an example, if bad traits were not something that exists within people of the future, then why did so many admirals from TNG, which is supposedly the most 'evolved' showing of humans, have them... so many that 'badmirals' is an actual term in the fanbase?
We now have adorable little droids that float around and do that kind of stuff.
All you have to do is see ST Discovery and see some of those little Droids floating around in the background doing janitorial work.
Tell it to the lower deckers.
ST: Prodigy had little floating droids that helped Hologram Janeway clear the murder vines off the vessel.
Said floating Droids in Star Trek go all the way back to TNG; and Data was willing to see the 1701-D destroyed instead of sacrifice one without its consent.
In ST: Prodigy, they seem to have developed new Exo-Comp like droids that aren't Sentient.Said floating Droids in Star Trek go all the way back to TNG; and Data was willing to see the 1701-D destroyed instead of sacrifice one without its consent.
Wait till HoloJaneway tells one of those kids they have to scrub the holodeck bio-filters.
That'd be pretty awkward since there's only 5 of them corporeal and biological. Dal would probably blame it on Murf.
