Basically, she's a typical female, using what she has to get what she wants, with no loyalty to anything but herself. That's not a bad quality at all, it's what makes our mothers fight for us.
I hate Lt. McGyvers.
- Thread starter Trekker4747
- Start date
Basically, she's a typical female, using what she has to get what she wants, with no loyalty to anything but herself. That's not a bad quality at all, it's what makes our mothers fight for us.
I'm a man and I'M offended by that.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I said it before and I say it again: I just don't see what Khan saw in her. She is FAR from being "a superior woman". She's weak-willed, vacillating, a TRIPLE turncoat, etc...
Jeez. I'm not sure if I'm offended or amused. Mostly the latter, I think.
Magic, if mothers really have no loyalty to anything but themselves, why would they "fight for us"? We're not "themselves." McGivers isn't typical of most of the women I know - they almost all have something not themselves that they are fiercely loyal to. Sorry if you haven't been as lucky. Some women, and some men, care for nothing but themselves, but "typical"? Your mother would be very offended to hear you say that.
Darkwing said:
I never thought about it before, but you know, you bring up a good point. I'm wondering if McGivers wasn't the only one not thinking with her head. Presumably Khan started out just using her...but he wasn't at the end there, as far as I can tell, so maybe not. Maybe he let a pretty woman affect his judgment, just as McGivers let Khan's magnetism, etc., etc., etc., affect hers.
Last edited:
Blasphemy! Sacrilege!!!
You sound a little bitter. So what have women "done" to you that has made you think all women have no loyalty. I'm female and I'm fiercely loyal...actually a little too loyal..even to some people who haven't friggin deserved it. So I really hope your joking...even though it twasn't funny we'll just chalk this up as a joke and give you a pass on this one.
I know, I know. Forgive me, Cakes honey. I like him as a character, meaning that I enjoy watching him (well, most of the time...), but I'm not sure I'd enjoy having him as my captain. I'm not sure I'd like me as a captain either, so don't take it personally.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I suppose it's possible; it's just that as portrayed McGivers just makes me cringe.
The key to what I think would have been a believable McGivers was in her portrayal outside Khan's influence. She needed to be seen as strong-willed, intelligent, and very self-assured. Her "romantic" view of history would have then been the key to her fall from grace (to use Milton in the same way the ep writers did), her tragic flaw.
When she felt regret at commiting mutiny against Kirk, they then should have shown her really struggling with her own inner conflict.
As it was, she was little more than a plot device, betraying her oath to set up the threat of Khan's takeover, then having a sudden change of heart to tip the scales back the other way.
I think Kirk purposely mispronounced her name in the beginning because he knew she was easy.
That IS what he saw in her. Arrogant, egotistical men like weak women. It's a common set-up for domestic violence situations. He's too domineering to want a woman who is his match in intelligence and personality.
Exactly what I thought, too. Being that he was a powerful man, the ego that he had could only be kept at such a level by manipulating those who are weaker of will than he into following him.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Except that is not in keeping with his ethos: the continuing dominance of "superior man". He would not want to "dirty" his bloodline with that of an "inferior" woman.
^ Yeah, I thought about that, too. Assuming he had the future (i.e. children) in mind, he wouldn't want their mother to be inferior. So it sounds to me as though he had, TPTB only know how, decided she was superior. Can't say as I admire his taste or his discretion.
Unless of course his definition of a "superior" woman is one who is convinced that Khan Knows Best? Just an idea...
Unless of course his definition of a "superior" woman is one who is convinced that Khan Knows Best? Just an idea...
I've encountered plenty of abusive men over the years, and have never had the impression that "bloodline" has anything to do with it.
Khan never mentions wanting offspring and we see no evidence in the storyline that reproducing was a priority for him. He may even see himself as immortal or godlike.
Consider what he's been through and that he has survived: He was genetically engineered to be superior to others, he used his abilities to rule part of the world, he escaped what appeared to be certain death by ingeniously rigging a "sleeper ship" which kept him intact until he could again try to take what he believes to be his rightful place as a world leader...
Where in this is a desire to carry on his superiority through offspring? If anything, I almost see him as the type who would kill any children as potential threats to himself.
Khan never mentions wanting offspring and we see no evidence in the storyline that reproducing was a priority for him. He may even see himself as immortal or godlike.
Consider what he's been through and that he has survived: He was genetically engineered to be superior to others, he used his abilities to rule part of the world, he escaped what appeared to be certain death by ingeniously rigging a "sleeper ship" which kept him intact until he could again try to take what he believes to be his rightful place as a world leader...
Where in this is a desire to carry on his superiority through offspring? If anything, I almost see him as the type who would kill any children as potential threats to himself.
Last edited:
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
"Absusive men" have nothing to do with what Khan set out to do with the Botany Bay crew.
Khan never mentions wanting offspring and we see no evidence in the storyline that reproducing was a priority for him...Where in this is a desire to carry on his superiority through offspring? If anything, I almost see him as the type who would kill any children as potential threats to himself. [/QUOTE]
It's never explicitly stated, BUT there are female Augments in the Botany Bay expedition.
Furthermore, it's implicit in the ideals of Eugenics: perpetuate the "good blood" so that man may be advanced. It does Khan no good to lead 100 Augments out "into the wilderness" to build a new, perfect society only to see it wither and die with the deaths of those who went with him. To survive, the "1000 year empire" (to borrow a phrase from another famous eugenics dictator) must grow. To grow the Augments must reproduce. It would be Khan's DUTY under Eugenics to reproduce his superior bloodline.
Perhaps Khan saw McGivers as little more than an incubator for a future clone of himself. Then, attractiveness and submissiveness would be all he needed from her.
I do think there was more to McGivers than met the eye. They just did not have the time in 50 minutes to create a more nuanced guest role, especially since Khan and his group were the main focus.
I do think there was more to McGivers than met the eye. They just did not have the time in 50 minutes to create a more nuanced guest role, especially since Khan and his group were the main focus.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
What they didn't have was the "stones" to do so. Remember, we're talking about the 60s. Even a mild portrayal of female stregth (Number One) was too much for the suits to take...
Similar threads
