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I hate Lt. McGyvers.

This thread's title almost made me spit out my coffee! lol

I can definitely see both sides of the argument here, but I can't help hating her... lol. You know what always bothered me? She's supposed to be a historian who loves the 20th Century, right? But she sits around her room painting vikings and Napoleon?! What happened to that 20th Century passion?!
 
Umm, 20th century wasn't really stated to be her speciality. She just happened to know more about 20th century Earth than anybody else aboard. Apparently, Spock is hazy on all Earth history, and Kirk is more of a 19th century afecionado - but McGivers was a general historian who also had some knowledge of Khan's era.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I interpreted her character very differently. She seemed very desparate, someone who was probably very lonely with poor self esteem. This is the kind of woman who falls for men like Khan, not someone who sleeps around a lot. He represented power, fame, and distinction to her, everything she did not see in herself.

Men like Khan are attracted to weak women because they need someone to control. Khan is genetically superior to other humans, and he has an arrogance to match. He doesn't want a strong woman who can hold her own, he enjoys flaunting his strengths for those he sees as "inferior".

This is the set-up for domestic violence, a rather typical dynamic in relationships of that nature. We already see the beginnings of abuse even within the episode.
 
I wonder how Lt. McGivers would have rated Kirk's performance as a member of the landing party in "Requeim for Methuselah"?
 
She looks like a female Kirk.

A hopeless romantic? Check.
Uses sex as a weapon? Check.
Does give a damn about regulations, but only when it's convenient? Check.
Torn about the morality of her choices, but only after sending hordes of redshirts to mortal danger? Check.
Cleverly manipulates all his enemies, yet earns their respect in the end? Check.
Gets court-martialed and is given a very soft slap on the wrists? Check.
Comes out as a winner against all odds? Check.
At the roll of end credits, boldly goes where no m.. woman has gone before, on an optimistic note? Check.
Gets the pretty, long-haired, big-breasted guest star? So check.

Timo Saloniemi


:lol:


Marian
 
Well I never hated her...that is waaaay too strong of a world...but I thought there was something wrong with the woman for falling in "love" so quicky...so to sum it up and I'll put this nicely...I always thought she was a "dumb bitch"..... I shan't be so eloquent again...so don't get used to it.
 
I won't deny that what she did was morally contemptible, but by sympathizing with her emotional/psychological motivation, I can see her as more than just someone to be hated for their weakness. I know she was physically attracted to Khan, but I think labelling her as simply a selfish person who just followed her, um...groin is a bit too harsh and unfair.

Liberal! ;)
 
You are awfully dang nice, Too Much. But that's OK - we can use a little bit more of that around here.

The thing is, a plot that requires a person to suddenly lose...well, everything - principles, ethics, judgment, loyalty, intelligence even - when she "falls in love"...the whole thing just annoys the HECK out of me, for a variety of reasons.

For one thing, it's lazy - it's a cliche, in fact. In this episode, they don't lead up to it so as to make it even plausible - they never do in TOS, which uses this plot device more than once. It just happens. She looks at him - the wonderful him - she lusts after him because even though he's an arrogant genocidal would-be dictator with megalomaniacal tendencies, apparently he's her dream man. (What the...?) Then he makes her feel like a real woman or something. And then...kaZAAAAAM! She's hooked.

For another, since it is usually a woman, it's also very often sexist. And in this case, it's doubly sexist since she does this awful thing and Kirk lets her get by with it. Because she did it "for love."

Yuck.

And even when it isn't sexist - equality does mean, after all, that women have a right to be stupid in addition to smart - it's still a cliche. If making a plot device plausible requires the audience - not the writers, but the audience - to create elaborate psychological justification out of almost nothing...this is not a good sign, plot-device-wise.

As an aside, of it's a plot device that even Shakespeare had problems with (and I'm thinking Troilus and Cressida here), that is also not a good sign.
 
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I don't know if there's anything "stupid" about what McGivers does. From the beginning, she bets on the winner - and then proceeds to wrap him around her pinky finger, without sacrificing anything important to her.

It's not as if she acts particularly distressed or disappointed at any point. When Khan acts to her liking, she swoons over him. When Khan acts in a manner she disapproves of, off she goes and instantly betrays him, releasing the next champion from the former one's clutches and then standing back to see events unfold. After which she again picks the winner and gets what she wished: an important position next to an important man, away from the drudgery of Starfleet.

I'd say that's pretty smart all the way.

Timo Saloniemi
 
So in your interpretation, Timo, McGyvvers didn't lose her principles, ethics, judgment, loyalty, etc., because she didn't have any to begin with? She was a conivving woman all along? I don't think I can buy it because like the "weak person who fell in love" plot device, this requires the audience to create elaborate psychological justification out of almost nothing, but it's definitely interesting.
 
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The way she wets her panties over Khan, jeopardizes everyone, herself, over her fluttering labial folds.

I'm glad she died.

Haggis "You don't like LT McGyvers. Why? Are you jealous?"
Trekker4747 "I've never been Jealous."
Haggis "But your annoyed that McGyvers fell for Khan ."
Trekker4747 "We offered Khan a good time"
Haggis "We?"




Im just joking with you bud...:lol:
 
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So in your interpretation, Timo, McGyvvers didn't lose her principles, ethics, judgment, loyalty, etc., because she didn't have any to begin with?

Well, she was on the same wavelength with Kirk on most of those things. Kirk, too, worshipped the ground beneath Khan's feet, to Spock's great amazement and not-so-great amusement. He apparently found the idea of Khan's enlightened dictatorship just plain wonderful, and considered it good judgement to treat Khan as an honored guest with lots of access to Starfleet secrets. As for "conniving", it's pretty much the same sort of opportunism that Kirk uses to advantage in every second adventure...

So basically, the difference between McGivers and Kirk boils down to that betrayal thing. Which is cast in interesting light by ST2, where it would appear that Kirk betrayed Starfleet by his lenient marooning of Khan on Ceti Alpha V - and filed a false report to hide his betrayal.

(Just kidding, of course. Mostly.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
^ I agree with you on Kirk - as I mentioned before, I never have liked this episode, and McGivers is only one of the reasons why. (And frankly, I never have been that crazy about Kirk as a captain anyway - too much of a loose canon for me.)

It's an episode in which characters are twisted around in order to fit the plot, instead of having the plot grow out of the characters or having the characters act in plausible ways within the plot.

This is also not a good sign, episode-quality-wise.
 
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I've always thought Kirk was too soft on her. Kirk should of dropped kicked the bitch to her court martial. :devil:
 
I've always thought Kirk was too soft on her. Kirk should of dropped kicked the bitch to her court martial. :devil:

Exiling her to a savage uninhabited planet to be some warlord dickhead's abused wife strikes me as pretty sufficent "punishment."
 
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