I finished Season One...does it get any better?
- Thread starter seigezunt
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The problem with Flashback is that as a concept, it was just sooooo stupid. And there is a deal of suspension of disbelief that exists in all TV... certainly Trek as well. Flackback's problem is that it went wayyyyyy over the line for suspension of disbelief to the point that you can feel your time being wasted watching it.
Can I make a suggestion for the OP? Start from 3x25 "Worst Case Scenario." It's pretty good on it's own, and then you have the two parter leading into season 4 where Seven of Nine is introduced. Then you've got "Year of Hell" a few episodes in.
That's basically how I rediscovered Voyager after ENT was cancelled... I started when Seven came in, completed the series then did the first few seasons. I just found it a lot more digestable. They time travel so much anyway, it's not as if it becomes too disorienting.
Can I make a suggestion for the OP? Start from 3x25 "Worst Case Scenario." It's pretty good on it's own, and then you have the two parter leading into season 4 where Seven of Nine is introduced. Then you've got "Year of Hell" a few episodes in.
That's basically how I rediscovered Voyager after ENT was cancelled... I started when Seven came in, completed the series then did the first few seasons. I just found it a lot more digestable. They time travel so much anyway, it's not as if it becomes too disorienting.
North Star is the only one you remember?! OMG.But IMO (which obviously differs from yours) ENT season 3 was awful, they tried to make it like DS9, but did not succeed. Archer became like Janeway - obsessed. And the whole idea of the Xindi was stupid - who were these guys and why had we never seen them before? The only part that was cool was the various types (Arboreal, Aquatic, etc). Not to mention the only episode I even remember from Season 3 was ... North Star? The one where they dress up as cowboys. The rest was all 'RAR, let's hunt down the Xindi!' - but thats just my opinion.
It was one of the few lame episodes (Extinction, Exile) that had little or nothing to do with the big storyarc and halted the momentum of the season.
I don't see a problem with not having seen the Xindi before - it's a big galaxy. Just the Federation has 150 worlds, and how many did we ever see or have mentioned?
The only thing that really bothered me in the Xindi arc was that they distinguished only the Xindi species, but didn't show different individuals within the Insectoid, Aquatic, and most importantly, Reptilian species - so we ended up basically having the Reptilian Xindi as stupid ugly evil lizard menand the fact that they made the human-looking Xindi (Primates) the most sympathetic, while the bad guys were the least human/ugliest (by human standards). It would have been more interesting if Degra was a lizard man and hell-bent-on-destruction fanatic villain Dolim had looked like a human.
But overall, I thought the Xindi arc was very good and exactly what the show needed. Season 3 had the most amazing visuals I've ever seen in Trek series (we actually got to see all those strange anomalies and their effects on the ship - unlike in VOY, where encountering an anomaly usually meant a lot of technobabble followed by some sort of time warp or whatever); great space action scenes - including the "Azati Prime/Damage" attack that left ENT a wreck; getting to know the Xindi, with sympathetic and developed Xindi characters, including Degra who became practically one of the leads of the season; some conflict within the crew of Enterprise (Reed and Hayes); strong character development for the main characters, over the entire season: Archer forced to do immoral things and become what he despised, and despising himself for it; Trip having to deal with his pain and anger over the death of his sister; T'Pol giving in to her desire to experiment with emotions and getting addicted to Trelium-D (was there another instance of a main character in Trek developing a drug addiction? And most amazingly, it wasn't treated in a judgmental way). One thing that ENT always did better than other Trek shows was treat redshirt deaths with importance and respect - TOS killed off redshirts far too often to the extent that it became a joke, and in VOY you rarely heard about any (except in Latent Image), it was always the main characters that were put in danger. In ENT, even if we didn't know the redshirts who died or hadn't even seen them, it was always shown that the Enterprise crew very affected by the deaths. I was particularly impressed by the way they really WRECKED the ship in Azati Prime/Damage - we've seen Enterprise ships destroyed before, but we've never seen it looking like a wreck with more holes in it than Swiss cheese... not to mention the shocking scenes of people being sucked into space. And the damage STUCK in the next episode and was dealt with - as did the damage to the soul of the main characters. Damage is my favorite S3 episode for the way it showed the ship and the show's leads - Archer and T'Pol - at their low point. Archer's decision to rob the ship of the explorers in Damage recalled Anomaly from the beginning of the season and the speech the alien pirate gave Archer - he became just like the pirates Enterprise had encountered early on in the Expanse, robbing the same kind of people, peaceful explorers, that he used to be. That's good planning for an arc - maybe VOY would have had something like that if Year of Hell was a season-long arc. But instead, on VOY, we would get such episodes where Janeway was forced to make tough decisions or where she crossed the line, but the consequences were never or almost never carried to another episode, just like any damage to the ship was reset by the next episode. In Night, we learn that Janeway felt guilty for stranding her crew in the Delta Quadrant... but it had never been mentioned or hinted before and was never mentioned since!
I always liked the 'silly' episodes as much as the serious ones :P (I liked "The Killing Game" too, though always scoffed at Voyager's holodeck malfunctions)
Hmmm, admittedly, I've only seen Enterprise once, and it was a couple of years ago. I should obviously watch it again, as it sounds like its better than I remember!
I don't remember having any problem with the season long arc (I'm a Niner afterall), and the cumulative damage to the ship, and actual character development - well thats something I've always thought Voyager should have, so that was hardly an 'issue' in Enterprise!
Things I do remember not liking (and as I said earlier, I watched it years ago, and don't remember much more than vague impressions, so my opinion might change if I watch it again) - Archer's change from naive and foolish to obsessive and hell-bent on the destruction of the Xindi. The change itself wasn't the issue - it was very realistic afterall - but I have a real issue with both Voyager and Enterprise, and the character 'development' of Janeway and Archer - because the fact is, all other development is ignored or thrown out the window entirely, and all we have left is obsessive Captain, which is just booooooring! Janeway is obsessed with taking her crew home, to the detriment of all else. And Archer is obsessed with destroying the Xindi. I found it very... dull, and over-used by the time I got to Enterprise.
As for the Xindi, as I said, I enjoyed the various types, and I don't remember disliking the Xindi characters - but they suffered from the same problem the rest of Enterprise suffered from pre-Season 4 - it didn't feel like a prequel! They made up the Suliban, the (stupid) Temporal Cold War, and then the Xindi. When I watched it, I remember enjoying the Ferengi and Borg episodes (I always liked the Ferengi though
) - but on later reflection, what the HELL were they doing?! Enterprise only became really good when it actually turned into a PREQUEL. Why they couldn't have made the Xindi the Romulans, or Tholians, or some other race we'd at least heard of, I can't understand... I don't recall having a problem with anything else in Enterprise Season 3... I enjoyed it at the time. I should really watch it again and see if my opinion has changed.
I pretty much agree with all of this. ENT season 3 contains some of the worst of Trek, but that was generally filler (Extinction, North Star) and when the show focused on the Xindi plot it produced some excellent stuff. Azati Prime through Zero Hour is one of the strongest stretches of episodes in Star Trek. Looking at my review scores for Voyager the closest Voyager seemed to get was Before and After to Scorpion Part 1, or Scorpion Part 2 to Year of Hell.
That's probably exactly what happened. I find it easier to forgive Storm Front because that two-parter at least tried to tie itself into TCW arc, whereas The Killing Game was just an absurd story which ruined the reputation of the otherwise excellent Hirogen. Message in a Bottle, Hunters and Prey were all good to excellent, but then they became space Nazis for reasons which strained credulity. To add insult to injury all the damage which was caused in the battle, including blowing up sickbay, and the consequences of Voyager's crew being captured and tortured for weeks... it was all forgotten by the next episode. At least the episode after Storm Front was reserved to allow the ship and the crew to recover from everything which happened the previous season.Flashback had potential, but they screwed up by having Braga be the one to write it. When DS9 did their tribute episode they picked the two biggest TOS fans on staff and because of that the episode was in the spirit of the classic series. When Voyager did their tribute episode they gave it to Braga who wasn't a big TOS fan and as a result the story felt very Voyagerish. The space virus/memory/mind meld crap just didn't fit in with the spirit of TOS, and certainly didn't fit in with TUC's more grounded take on the franchise, and as a result the whole thing fell apart.
If you're going to skip ahead the stretch of episodes from Before and After to Scorpion (which I mentioned above) would possibly be the best place to start.
Before and After: A cool episode about Kes and one of the better time travel plots in the franchise.
Real Life: A drama about Dr Shmully which is a little melodramatic, but it has heart.
Distant Origin: "Voyager finds space-faring dinosaurs in the Delta Quadrant" sounds like a recipe for disaster, but it is actually one of the best issue episodes of the show.
Displaced: Rubbish about aliens and some stupid plot about capturing Voyager for reasons which never make sense.
Worst Case Scenario: One of the more tolerable holodeck episodes, it descends into farce towards the end but the first few acts are great.
Scorpion: Needs no introduction.
The only reason Voyager's first season is strong is because it is incredibly short and a lot of the awful episodes were shoved into season 2.
Personally I find Voyager more likeable in the early days because there's an innocence to the show that I enjoy.
It's the later seasons where the inconsistent writing of Janeway, the neutering of the Borg and Species 8472, the removal of Kes and the consistent presence of useless characters like Kim and Chakotay that remind me why this series tested my love for this franchise.
The only positives of the later seasons are Seven of Nine and the constant comfort of knowing that when The Doctor is on screen, all is good for a moment.
Personally I find Voyager more likeable in the early days because there's an innocence to the show that I enjoy.
It's the later seasons where the inconsistent writing of Janeway, the neutering of the Borg and Species 8472, the removal of Kes and the consistent presence of useless characters like Kim and Chakotay that remind me why this series tested my love for this franchise.
The only positives of the later seasons are Seven of Nine and the constant comfort of knowing that when The Doctor is on screen, all is good for a moment.
Ok, I see you point in the "24" similarity and yes, what an odd turn of play that they're both writing/producing that show now.(...and not doing too bad a job either.)I think that ENT S3 was far more obviously going after the 24 audience than the DS9 audience. A season long arc (which was, coincidentally, a 24 episode season) about a mission to save Earth which causes Archer and co to go all badass and torture aliens for information, and the stakes got bigger as the season reached its climax. This is at its most obvious in the episode where Archer and T'Pol travel back to 2004 to stop the Reptilians creating a bio-weapon, the shaky-cam and fast-zoom were clearly an attempt to copy 24's aesthetic, were the plot not an obvious enough rip-off. In fact, I feel that season 3 had very little in common with DS9 beyond the fact that there was a continuing story arc. The Dominion War was a full on war whereas the Xindi arc was a lone ship fighting against the clock.
And to back up my claim I'll point out that Braga and Manny Coto (the head writers of the Xindi arc) both ended up on the 24 writing staff after Enterprise was mothballed.
Besides, the Xindi arc's genesis was in Voyager, not DS9, because it is based off of Braga's idea for a season-long Year of Hell arc in VOY season 4 which was shot down. Six years later Enterprise was in trouble and B&B knew they had to do something to dig themselves out of the ratings hole, so they took Braga's idea and added in a few elements from 24. Not the most original idea and clearly the wrong direction for a prequel show, but for the most part it worked.
Yes, thank god Voyager didn't have any alien Nazi crap in its 4th or 5th season.No Voyager ep. IMO is as bad as that botched "Alien Nazi's come to Harlem" cross time caper crap. Only thing missing was Red Foxx and Della Resse.
Yes, Voyager did do the Nazi thing which hasn't done on Trek since TOS but for ENT. to do it AGAIN with alien Nazi' while in Harlem took the idea way farther than it should making a further mockery of WWII.
Once again my apologizes DevilEyes on our misunderstanding. I think I'm starting to see your point.
He wasn't obsessed with destroying the Xindi, he was obsessed with destroying their superweapon or at least stopping them from deploying it, one way or another. Which is completely understandable, IMO, when your planet is in imminent danger of being destroyed, and your ship is the only one on a mission to stop it. (Which BTW brings me to another problem with the Xindi arc, why weren't there any other ships there to defend Earth in season 3 finale after the superweapon was launched?) And he still held the belief that "we can't afford to lose what makes us human" (probably not the exact quote), as when he choose to try and explain and convince the Xindi technician at the facility where the weapon components were assembled, instead of simply blowing up the facility; telling Reed, "we are here to prevent the war, not start it" and that they by blowing up the facility they would be confirming the worst fears that the Xindi had about Humans. But the gravity of the situation forced him to break his principles in some situations, and do immoral things, even though he was troubled by it (from torturing the prisoner in Anomaly to resorting to piracy in Damage), and that conflict in his character was what made his storyarc in season 3 interesting, IMO.Hmmm, admittedly, I've only seen Enterprise once, and it was a couple of years ago. I should obviously watch it again, as it sounds like its better than I remember!
I don't remember having any problem with the season long arc (I'm a Niner afterall), and the cumulative damage to the ship, and actual character development - well thats something I've always thought Voyager should have, so that was hardly an 'issue' in Enterprise!
Things I do remember not liking (and as I said earlier, I watched it years ago, and don't remember much more than vague impressions, so my opinion might change if I watch it again) - Archer's change from naive and foolish to obsessive and hell-bent on the destruction of the Xindi. The change itself wasn't the issue - it was very realistic afterall - but I have a real issue with both Voyager and Enterprise, and the character 'development' of Janeway and Archer - because the fact is, all other development is ignored or thrown out the window entirely, and all we have left is obsessive Captain, which is just booooooring! Janeway is obsessed with taking her crew home, to the detriment of all else. And Archer is obsessed with destroying the Xindi. I found it very... dull, and over-used by the time I got to Enterprise.
Back to VOY: I'm not sure I would characterize Janeway as being obsessed with getting Voyager home... are you referring to the fact that she never considered staying for a longer periods of time on one of the planets they visited? But she made Voyager explore all sorts of anomalies, and kept the "we are explorers" approach, and insisted on still sticking to the Starfleet principles (except when she made the alliance with the Borg). Captain Ransom and his first officer seem more like an example of someone who got really obsessed with getting their crew home at any expense.
He wasn't obsessed with destroying the Xindi, he was obsessed with destroying their superweapon or at least stopping them from deploying it, one way or another. Which is completely understandable, IMO, when your planet is in imminent danger of being destroyed, and your ship is the only one on a mission to stop it. (Which BTW brings me to another problem with the Xindi arc, why weren't there any other ships there to defend Earth in season 3 finale after the superweapon was launched?) And he still held the belief that "we can't afford to lose what makes us human" (probably not the exact quote), as when he choose to try and explain and convince the Xindi technician at the facility where the weapon components were assembled, instead of simply blowing up the facility; telling Reed, "we are here to prevent the war, not start it" and that they by blowing up the facility they would be confirming the worst fears that the Xindi had about Humans. But the gravity of the situation forced him to break his principles in some situations, and do immoral things, even though he was troubled by it (from torturing the prisoner in Anomaly to resorting to piracy in Damage), and that conflict in his character was what made his storyarc in season 3 interesting, IMO.Hmmm, admittedly, I've only seen Enterprise once, and it was a couple of years ago. I should obviously watch it again, as it sounds like its better than I remember!
I don't remember having any problem with the season long arc (I'm a Niner afterall), and the cumulative damage to the ship, and actual character development - well thats something I've always thought Voyager should have, so that was hardly an 'issue' in Enterprise!
Things I do remember not liking (and as I said earlier, I watched it years ago, and don't remember much more than vague impressions, so my opinion might change if I watch it again) - Archer's change from naive and foolish to obsessive and hell-bent on the destruction of the Xindi. The change itself wasn't the issue - it was very realistic afterall - but I have a real issue with both Voyager and Enterprise, and the character 'development' of Janeway and Archer - because the fact is, all other development is ignored or thrown out the window entirely, and all we have left is obsessive Captain, which is just booooooring! Janeway is obsessed with taking her crew home, to the detriment of all else. And Archer is obsessed with destroying the Xindi. I found it very... dull, and over-used by the time I got to Enterprise.
Back to VOY: I'm not sure I would characterize Janeway as being obsessed with getting Voyager home... are you referring to the fact that she never considered staying for a longer periods of time on one of the planets they visited? But she made Voyager explore all sorts of anomalies, and kept the "we are explorers" approach, and insisted on still sticking to the Starfleet principles (except when she made the alliance with the Borg). Captain Ransom and his first officer seem more like an example of someone who got really obsessed with getting their crew home at any expense.
Hmmm, I'll again admit, I haven't seen Enterprise since the first time I watched it (which was back around... '07... '08 maybe? I don't even remember its been that long
). Whereas you're obviously well versed on the source material, I barely even remember it - so I can concede that the show probably did get better in Season 3, but I always liked Season 4 - because it actually FELT like a Prequel. Even if they DID do a good job on the whole Xindi arc, the point still stands, who the hell are the Xindi? Enterprise was the only series to shed some light on the Vulcans (as a race, rather than as characters) and Andorians, and the only one to even SHOW races like the Tellarites, Orion, Gorn and Tholians since TOS - but what little they did was not enough! Humans, Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites are supposed to be the 4 founding members of the Federation, and yet we STILL barely know anything about them! The show SHOULD have focused on all the TOS races - both allies and enemies - and developed them, rather than making up new races all the time.
Sure, the Federation is made up of 150 members - but thats by Picard's time, 200 years later! If they wanted to have first contact with worlds such as Betazed, or Bolarus, or a bunch of races seen in the movies who make up the Federation Council, that would have been a lot better than creating the Suliban, Xindi, Denobulans, etc.
As for VOY, again, its been a while (my family and I got bored with re-watching it around season 5 a couple of months ago) - but I was referring to Janeway's attitude and what I consider her 'obsession' with getting her crew home - she practically says it in every episode! And yet, as you said, when she's not hell-bent on "getting her crew home" then she explores every anomaly they pass, and still rigidly sticks to Starfleet principles - these contradictions in her character, because of the way they were written from episode to episode, make her wildly inconsitant.
And I'd agree that Captain Ransom was obsessed (though its been a while since I've seen Equinox) - but I think maybe his obsession was more realistically portrayed. To be that obsessed with getting his crew home, then he WOULD be willing to do whatever it took. Janeway jumped from acting obsessive (she was willing to make a deal with the BORG ffs!), to 'oh no, we can't do THAT, we have principles to uphold', to 'oh look, an anomaly!' from one episode to the next, depending on what 'role' the writers needed her to play to fit the story. You said it yourself, "she insisted on still sticking to the Starfleet principles (except when she made the alliance with the Borg)".
But if other people didn't see her as obsessive, then maybe its just something that bothered me.
^I don't find Janeway inconsistant, she was a scientist.
It was her job to have an ideas.
That's what Spock, Data & Dax all did, even if the idea was the exact opposite of the plan that worked before.
Because as a scientist she had to formulate ideas & plans that were going to work in their benefit regardless of prior ideas because as a scientist she'd have to calculate the odds of it working twice. Especially up against an equally clever species such as the Borg.
.....and they did, every time.
I'm surprised the made Janeway's hobby tennis because she thinks more like a chess player than anything else. "Counterpoint" , Dark Frontier" & "Endgame" prove that.
It was her job to have an ideas.
That's what Spock, Data & Dax all did, even if the idea was the exact opposite of the plan that worked before.
Because as a scientist she had to formulate ideas & plans that were going to work in their benefit regardless of prior ideas because as a scientist she'd have to calculate the odds of it working twice. Especially up against an equally clever species such as the Borg.
.....and they did, every time.
I'm surprised the made Janeway's hobby tennis because she thinks more like a chess player than anything else. "Counterpoint" , Dark Frontier" & "Endgame" prove that.
Kegg corrected me on this a few weeks ago, so now I'm enjoying the opportunity to correct someone else on it.
Humans, Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites are only the four founding members of the Federation because Enterprise said they were, and before Enterprise stated otherwise on screen there was nothing to suggest that the Xindi or Suliban weren't one of the founders. ENT stated the four founding members in the season 3 finale, and in the season that followed they started making great efforts to flesh out the politics and cultures of all four of those races. Then the show got cancelled, and now we have the Abramsverse instead.
Exactly.Kegg corrected me on this a few weeks ago, so now I'm enjoying the opportunity to correct someone else on it.
Humans, Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites are only the four founding members of the Federation because Enterprise said they were, and before Enterprise stated otherwise on screen there was nothing to suggest that the Xindi or Suliban weren't one of the founders. ENT stated the four founding members in the season 3 finale, and in the season that followed they started making great efforts to flesh out the politics and cultures of all four of those races. Then the show got cancelled, and now we have the Abramsverse instead.
We won't make first contact with Betazoids, Bolians & others until we do get closer to Picards time. It just shows Archer, Kirk & others had allot of space to cover & chart even before Picard sat in the big chair.
Well I'm quite happy to agree to disagree on this matter.
Though I will say - there was more to Spock, Data and Jadzia than just being a scientist, all of their characters were explored and expanded in much more detail than Janeway's was.
And as for Janeway's plans working every time... Thats because they were written that way? Also, I don't see how being a scientist is justification for her being written inconsistantly? Spock, Data and Jadzia were all scientists, and none of them were wildly inconsistant from one episode to the next...
But as I said before, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Exactly.Kegg corrected me on this a few weeks ago, so now I'm enjoying the opportunity to correct someone else on it.
Humans, Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites are only the four founding members of the Federation because Enterprise said they were, and before Enterprise stated otherwise on screen there was nothing to suggest that the Xindi or Suliban weren't one of the founders. ENT stated the four founding members in the season 3 finale, and in the season that followed they started making great efforts to flesh out the politics and cultures of all four of those races. Then the show got cancelled, and now we have the Abramsverse instead.
We won't make first contact with Betazoids, Bolians & others until we do get closer to Picards time. It just shows Archer, Kirk & others had allot of space to cover & chart even before Picard sat in the big chair.
@TheGodBen - Oh snap! I had no idea! I immediately jumped over to Memory Alpha, and it seems you (and Kegg) are right... Though I'm glad to see that you needed to be corrected on it as well, it doesn't make me feel as foolish.
As for the Betazoids, et al. Okay, I admit, they weren't the best example. But I think you're missing my point - TNG could discover new races, and have more races admitted into the Federation, because it was set in the future. Enterprise shouldn't have had that luxury - it was supposed to be a prequel. It should have showed the races / Federation members shown in TOS and the following movies.
I completely agree that Season 4 DID finally start to flesh out (and establish, apparently!) the founding races - but thats 3 seasons too late IMO! It was pitched as a prequel - and while it did start establishing and developing more about the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Orion, Klingons, Romulans and Tholians - I don't think it did it enough to begin with. The Denobulans, Suliban and Xindi should have one of the aforementioned species.
If I was making Enterprise, it would have started out like Season 4 - short arcs, delving into a TRUE pre-Federation prequel universe. Then instead of the Xindi arc, something similar could have been done involving the Romulans and the Earth-Romulan War (and yes, I'm aware thats where Season 5 was headed!).
But alas, I've managed to derail a Voyager thread with discussions about Enterprise.
Back on topic - Voyager is not to everyone's taste. I've been thinking a lot these past couple of days, about the mistakes it and Enterprise made (or more, the mistakes made by the people running the shows). The premises were both interesting, and the characters and episodes weren't entirely bad (not all the time at least) - but they basically became TNG Mk II and III.
Jadzia wasn't wildly inconsistant, really?
Well I'm quite happy to agree to disagree on this matter.
Though I will say - there was more to Spock, Data and Jadzia than just being a scientist, all of their characters were explored and expanded in much more detail than Janeway's was.
And as for Janeway's plans working every time... Thats because they were written that way? Also, I don't see how being a scientist is justification for her being written inconsistantly? Spock, Data and Jadzia were all scientists, and none of them were wildly inconsistant from one episode to the next...
But as I said before, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Spock, Data & Jadzia also weren't Captains stuck to the other side of the galaxy with a responsiblity to get their ship & crew home either. We all saw what the stress of war & politics were doing to Sisko, sometimes being inconsistant is required to get thru what appears to be no-win situations. Janeway plans working in her favor are written that way, just like Kirk out smarting Khan, Sisko winning the war & Picard being admired by Q were. Has there been a Trek series yet were the Capt. fails?
Yes, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I agree with you on the hairstyle change, although personally I've always preferred the "Klingon Power Pony Tail" from season 3.
Oh, it gets better. But it also gets waaaay worse. Voyager is weird in that it doesn't start off bad, it just starts off incredibly mediocre for the first couple of seasons. And then it stops being around the middle, and what you get is either really good or really terrible. On one hand, you have things like Shattered, Scorpion, Critical Care, and Year of Hell to look forward to. On the other hand, you also have rubbish like In the Flesh, Dark Frontier, and Coda ahead.
