I don't get it.

[Jeri]

Think of all the Ocampa we met; they all seem to be kind of arrogant -- except for Kes, who was particularly cool. Her own people even said she was different. I think the Ocampa were a powerful species that had lost its way (not their fault) and didn't know how to deal with themselves anymore. There was really nobody to guide Kes.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Think of all the Ocampa we met; they all seem to be kind of arrogant -- except for Kes, who was particularly cool. Her own people even said she was different. I think the Ocampa were a powerful species that had lost its way (not their fault) and didn't know how to deal with themselves anymore. There was really nobody to guide Kes.

I wouldn't call them arrogant, except for that one that was with Susperia. But Kes wasn't unique. The Kazon said that every once in a while an ocampa gets to the surface


JABIN: "Occasionally, some of them do find their way to the surface. We don't know how, but the Ocampa seal the tunnels afterwards"

 

[Lynx]

She was not back to "her old self" the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. She showed up in the episode as a crazy idiot and left as a pathetic old wreck.

Where was the real Kes, the brave, curious Kes who wanted to learn and explore?

That's what I mean with character destruction and I can't accept that.

I also question the reason why they first dump the character and spend two years more and less denying the existance of the character in order to make the fans forget her. Then they bring her back-only to destroy her.

That was rude and unnecessary and I can't accept that either.

maybe you just didn't watch the end of the episode. You should watch it again. At the end she is in fact back to her "old" self. She is back to being kind and intelligent and wants to go help her people. She had been out exploring for several years and wanted to go back to her own people to try to help them. What's wrong with that. It's actualy realy nice

It doesn't matter given issue was also taken at the fact Neelix & Westly both left as well.

Some can't accept that fact that people enter and leave our lives all the time, just as children will grow up and move away from their parents to have lives and families all their own. It's a natural part of life.

If someone can't accept people (even fictional ones) change, then life will be a very difficult journey.

Jen Lien herself even approved and rewrote "Fury".

Jennifer Lien's only involvment in "rewriting" the episode was that she did persuade the not so nice people in charge not to kill off Kes which they actually had planned to do.

I can accept changes, both in real life and for fictional characters. But I don't accept unnecessary character destruction which is exactly what "Fury" was.

And she wasn't back to her "old self" at the episode. The "old self" was the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. I didn't see anything of that character anywjere in "Fury".

Rewatch the episode? No, that's something I will never do. Not "Fury" and not "The Gift".

I must also ask Mrs.Paris a polite question regarding this matter: You have stated that you don't like the character Kes. Therefore I do find it a bit strange that you who dislike the character is trying to persuade someone who is a fan of the character to accept the destruction of the character. What's the point with that?

 

[Lynx]

Think of all the Ocampa we met; they all seem to be kind of arrogant -- except for Kes, who was particularly cool. Her own people even said she was different. I think the Ocampa were a powerful species that had lost its way (not their fault) and didn't know how to deal with themselves anymore. There was really nobody to guide Kes.

You do have a point about the Ocampa. I guess that their dependence of the Caretaker (and Suspiria) as well had made them slightly arrogant and yes, they may have "lost their way".

But, as you also state, Kes was different.

As for no one to guide her, that is not entirely true. She had Tuvok, Janeway and her other fiends on the ship. They became her "family".

 

[Mrs Paris]

maybe you just didn't watch the end of the episode. You should watch it again. At the end she is in fact back to her "old" self. She is back to being kind and intelligent and wants to go help her people. She had been out exploring for several years and wanted to go back to her own people to try to help them. What's wrong with that. It's actualy realy nice

It doesn't matter given issue was also taken at the fact Neelix & Westly both left as well.

Some can't accept that fact that people enter and leave our lives all the time, just as children will grow up and move away from their parents to have lives and families all their own. It's a natural part of life.

If someone can't accept people (even fictional ones) change, then life will be a very difficult journey.

Jen Lien herself even approved and rewrote "Fury".

Jennifer Lien's only involvment in "rewriting" the episode was that she did persuade the not so nice people in charge not to kill off Kes which they actually had planned to do.

I can accept changes, both in real life and for fictional characters. But I don't accept unnecessary character destruction which is exactly what "Fury" was.

And she wasn't back to her "old self" at the episode. The "old self" was the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. I didn't see anything of that character anywjere in "Fury".

Rewatch the episode? No, that's something I will never do. Not "Fury" and not "The Gift".

I must also ask Mrs.Paris a polite question regarding this matter: You have stated that you don't like the character Kes. Therefore I do find it a bit strange that you who dislike the character is trying to persuade someone who is a fan of the character to accept the destruction of the character. What's the point with that?

I'm not asking you to accept anything.

all I've said, and SEVERAL OTHERS have said is that Kes WAS NOT destroyed at the end

and what does it matter whether or not they planned on killing her off. They might as well have killed her off since we never saw her again. It doesn't matter. It's a show that went off the air almost 10 years ago. It's time to let it go Lynx!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mrs Paris]

Think of all the Ocampa we met; they all seem to be kind of arrogant -- except for Kes, who was particularly cool. Her own people even said she was different. I think the Ocampa were a powerful species that had lost its way (not their fault) and didn't know how to deal with themselves anymore. There was really nobody to guide Kes.

You do have a point about the Ocampa. I guess that their dependence of the Caretaker (and Suspiria) as well had made them slightly arrogant and yes, they may have "lost their way".

But, as you also state, Kes was different.

As for no one to guide her, that is not entirely true. She had Tuvok, Janeway and her other fiends on the ship. They became her "family".

yeah, Tuvok guided her alright. He pushed her to continue exploring her mental powers when she quite clearly said she was afraid of them. Then they sent her off in a shuttle all by herself. No wonder she came back angry

 

[exodus]

maybe you just didn't watch the end of the episode. You should watch it again. At the end she is in fact back to her "old" self. She is back to being kind and intelligent and wants to go help her people. She had been out exploring for several years and wanted to go back to her own people to try to help them. What's wrong with that. It's actualy realy nice

It doesn't matter given issue was also taken at the fact Neelix & Westly both left as well.

Some can't accept that fact that people enter and leave our lives all the time, just as children will grow up and move away from their parents to have lives and families all their own. It's a natural part of life.

If someone can't accept people (even fictional ones) change, then life will be a very difficult journey.

Jen Lien herself even approved and rewrote "Fury".

Jennifer Lien's only involvment in "rewriting" the episode was that she did persuade the not so nice people in charge not to kill off Kes which they actually had planned to do.

I can accept changes, both in real life and for fictional characters. But I don't accept unnecessary character destruction which is exactly what "Fury" was.

And she wasn't back to her "old self" at the episode. The "old self" was the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. I didn't see anything of that character anywjere in "Fury".

Rewatch the episode? No, that's something I will never do. Not "Fury" and not "The Gift".

Then I guess our discussion of Kes has concluded.

 

[Lynx]

It doesn't matter given issue was also taken at the fact Neelix & Westly both left as well.

Some can't accept that fact that people enter and leave our lives all the time, just as children will grow up and move away from their parents to have lives and families all their own. It's a natural part of life.

If someone can't accept people (even fictional ones) change, then life will be a very difficult journey.

Jen Lien herself even approved and rewrote "Fury".

Jennifer Lien's only involvment in "rewriting" the episode was that she did persuade the not so nice people in charge not to kill off Kes which they actually had planned to do.

I can accept changes, both in real life and for fictional characters. But I don't accept unnecessary character destruction which is exactly what "Fury" was.

And she wasn't back to her "old self" at the episode. The "old self" was the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. I didn't see anything of that character anywjere in "Fury".

Rewatch the episode? No, that's something I will never do. Not "Fury" and not "The Gift".

Then I guess our discussion of Kes has concluded.

Maybe we can agree that we disagree on some things.

 

[exodus]

Jennifer Lien's only involvment in "rewriting" the episode was that she did persuade the not so nice people in charge not to kill off Kes which they actually had planned to do.

I can accept changes, both in real life and for fictional characters. But I don't accept unnecessary character destruction which is exactly what "Fury" was.

And she wasn't back to her "old self" at the episode. The "old self" was the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. I didn't see anything of that character anywjere in "Fury".

Rewatch the episode? No, that's something I will never do. Not "Fury" and not "The Gift".

Then I guess our discussion of Kes has concluded.

Maybe we can agree that we disagree on some things.

Nope, because that's never worked in the past and I doubt it will now.

 

[Lynx]

Then I guess our discussion of Kes has concluded.

Maybe we can agree that we disagree on some things.

Nope, because that's never worked in the past and I doubt it will now.

Don't be so pessimistic!

 

[kimc]

It's time to let it go Lynx!!!!!!!!!!

Then I guess our discussion of Kes has concluded.

Maybe we can agree that we disagree on some things.

Nope, because that's never worked in the past and I doubt it will now.

Come on guys - either give each other the benefit of the doubt or take it to pm already. The rest of us don't need to be reading this stuff.

 

[Kio]

Lynx, I don't think you and I are ever going to agree about Kes either, but I'm not bugged by that if you aren't.

As for "something going terribly wrong with Kes", now why would Kes be the only one who got whacked? Why not, Neelix, Torres, Kim or anyone else?

Well, it could be senility of the kind we saw in Kes' time travel episode, colored by anger and bitterness. Or a strange alien virus - the delta quadrant seemed to be chock-full of those. How about poisonous radiation? Pretty much anything could have happened to her after she left the ship.

And due to how the scene was set in "Fury" I don't think that the pathetic wreck ever came back to the planet, considering the time it had taken Voyager through this area of space and the dangers they encountered too.

She did look weak, but she said she'd make it home. If she was able to send Voyager so far when she had just come into her powers, then I can believe she would be able to get herself home.

And what should the wreck accomplish there? Shortly before the Caretaker died, he downloaded his knowledge and information to the planet (according to the book "Caretaker" which is based on the script).

I don't think I'd call her a wreck, not even at her craziest. I just can't see it that way. Whatever was in the Caretaker's database, I'd guess it didn't include info on how the Ocampans can develop their powers. That's what Kes could have given them - demonstrations, encouragement, the Vulcan meditation techniques, her take on how best to develop. I'm iffy on whether or not Suspiria and the other Ocampans would help the home planet.

And she wasn't back to her "old self" at the episode. The "old self" was the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. I didn't see anything of that character anywjere in "Fury".

I'd say she was back on track, but I agree that she wasn't her old self again. That didn't bother me since I thought more of her after that episode.

Just curious, what did you think of the Kes/Neelix relationship and the break up?

 

[Lynx]

Lynx, I don't think you and I are ever going to agree about Kes either, but I'm not bugged by that if you aren't.

As for "something going terribly wrong with Kes", now why would Kes be the only one who got whacked? Why not, Neelix, Torres, Kim or anyone else?

Well, it could be senility of the kind we saw in Kes' time travel episode, colored by anger and bitterness. Or a strange alien virus - the delta quadrant seemed to be chock-full of those. How about poisonous radiation? Pretty much anything could have happened to her after she left the ship.

And due to how the scene was set in "Fury" I don't think that the pathetic wreck ever came back to the planet, considering the time it had taken Voyager through this area of space and the dangers they encountered too.

She did look weak, but she said she'd make it home. If she was able to send Voyager so far when she had just come into her powers, then I can believe she would be able to get herself home.

And what should the wreck accomplish there? Shortly before the Caretaker died, he downloaded his knowledge and information to the planet (according to the book "Caretaker" which is based on the script).

I don't think I'd call her a wreck, not even at her craziest. I just can't see it that way. Whatever was in the Caretaker's database, I'd guess it didn't include info on how the Ocampans can develop their powers. That's what Kes could have given them - demonstrations, encouragement, the Vulcan meditation techniques, her take on how best to develop. I'm iffy on whether or not Suspiria and the other Ocampans would help the home planet.

And she wasn't back to her "old self" at the episode. The "old self" was the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. I didn't see anything of that character anywjere in "Fury".

I'd say she was back on track, but I agree that she wasn't her old self again. That didn't bother me since I thought more of her after that episode.

Just curious, what did you think of the Kes/Neelix relationship and the break up?

No, I don't think that I can agree of much in your statement. But I hope that you won't take it personally.There are probably other aspects about the show that we can agree on.

Without being rude and without spewing out too much of my dislike about "Fury", I simply can't accept what was thrown in my face in that episode. To be honest, I didn't like the way she "left" in "The Gift" either. The whole "rapidly turned into an energy-being" mumbo-jumbo which they came up with only to get rid of the character as soon as possible.

Kes should never have "left".

As for the Ocampa, I do think that the information the Caretaker provided them with did contain everything they needed. I also have a feeling that Suspiria and the Ocampa on her planet would be more interested in aiding the people on the homeworld after the encounter with Voyager and the information they got from the Voyager crew. I don't think that "Kes" or whatever that creature was supposed to be could contribute that much to thir development.

And, as I've stated before, what we saw wasn't the real Kes. The real Kes was curious and wanted to learn and explore. I saw nothing of the qualitise of the real Kes in the pathetic character in "Fury".

As for the Kes-Neelix relationship, there are a lot of people who are critical to that one for many different reasons.

Personally, I didn't see any chemistry at all between them. I guess that those in charge wanted to come up with some "beauty and the beast" scenario. When they realized that it didn't really work, they did the same as with the silly lifespan and other things which didn't work, they just let it hang along without really using it other than here and there in some episodes.

I thought that the relationship was OK for a while. I can imagine that Kes might have fallen in love with the one who rescued her. But as I've written before, there weren't any chemistry between them and if I had been in charge, I would have broken up the relationship in season 2, shortly after "Parturition", using Neelix's jealousy and her over-protection as excuse for the break-up. I would also have made the break-up take place during 2-3 episodes to make it more realistic, maybe with some arguments between them

As for the break-up itself in season 3, it was badly handled. Kes is possessed by Tieran, the evil warlord and under that influence she breaks up with Neelix. But when she got free from Tieran, shouldn't she have been her old self again and gone back to Neelix? No! There were never any explanations why the relationship remained broken up and no scenes in which the characters talked about it or explained anything. Another bad example of how incapable those in charge were when it came to describe relations between the characters. They've failed miserably with that in other episodes and series as well.

As for Kes, feel free to visit the Kes Website at: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/

 

[Mrs Paris]

Neelix who had many life experances was fasinated by the replicator and transporter the first time he saw/used him. Kes, who's never seen anything other than her underground world was never once in awe or curious about anything on the ship. She wasn't even surprised by a man popping out of thin air.(The EMH)

I'm referring to this post of yours. Kes didn't need to be in awe of Voyager's advanced technology. She came from a fairly advanced society herself and seemed to have a firm grasp on technology. Plus she was naturally curious about things.

Don't take me so literally exodus. Damn...

Sorry.

This is what you get for not having a site with a working replicator that serves alcohol.

wait a minute.....do you mean that there are other sites that have replicators???

 

[exodus]

I'm referring to this post of yours. Kes didn't need to be in awe of Voyager's advanced technology. She came from a fairly advanced society herself and seemed to have a firm grasp on technology. Plus she was naturally curious about things.

Don't take me so literally exodus. Damn...

Sorry.

This is what you get for not having a site with a working replicator that serves alcohol.

wait a minute.....do you mean that there are other sites that have replicators???

My favorite one even has an Arcade.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Sorry.

This is what you get for not having a site with a working replicator that serves alcohol.

wait a minute.....do you mean that there are other sites that have replicators???

My favorite one even has an Arcade.

nah, what do I need an arcade for. I own a video game store

 

[exodus]

wait a minute.....do you mean that there are other sites that have replicators???

My favorite one even has an Arcade.

nah, what do I need an arcade for. I own a video game store

I'm PM'ing you my "Wish List".

 

[exodus]

It's time to let it go Lynx!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe we can agree that we disagree on some things.

Nope, because that's never worked in the past and I doubt it will now.

Come on guys - either give each other the benefit of the doubt or take it to pm already. The rest of us don't need to be reading this stuff.

Come on, don't tell me you don't enjoy a good drama?

 

[kimc]

It's time to let it go Lynx!!!!!!!!!!

Nope, because that's never worked in the past and I doubt it will now.

Come on guys - either give each other the benefit of the doubt or take it to pm already. The rest of us don't need to be reading this stuff.

Come on, don't tell me you don't enjoy a good drama?

If I want drama I'll pop in a movie so drop it.

 

[exodus]

Wow, tough crowd.