And not only that, but the COB was played by the movie's screenwriter! Another reason he should have known better.
Hunt for Red October question
- Thread starter Mr. Laser Beam
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And not only that, but the COB was played by the movie's screenwriter! Another reason he should have known better.
Okay, this wasn't the story I was looking for, but I do remember reading years ago that sometimes there is a reason that military uniforms aren't shown to be correct on screen.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/migh...-for-hollywood-to-screw-up-military-uniforms/
The portion of the story in question. . .
According to the original Title 10, Chapter 45 section 772 line (f), actors may wear armed forces uniforms as long as it does not intend to discredit that armed force, and in 1970 that condition was removed altogether.
Back in 1967, Daniel Jay Schacht put on a theatrical street performance in protest of the Vietnam War. He and two other actors put on a skit where he "shot" the others with squirt-guns filled with red liquid. It was highly disrespectful but he did manage to get the uniform correct. After being sentenced with a $250 fine and six months in prison, he brought it up to the Court of Appeals and eventually to the Supreme Court.
It was ruled that, as distasteful as it was, his performance was protected under the First Amendment. The Vietnam War protester inadvertently helped troops by taking away any excuse to not get our uniforms right in film, television, and theatrical performances.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/migh...-for-hollywood-to-screw-up-military-uniforms/
The portion of the story in question. . .
According to the original Title 10, Chapter 45 section 772 line (f), actors may wear armed forces uniforms as long as it does not intend to discredit that armed force, and in 1970 that condition was removed altogether.
Back in 1967, Daniel Jay Schacht put on a theatrical street performance in protest of the Vietnam War. He and two other actors put on a skit where he "shot" the others with squirt-guns filled with red liquid. It was highly disrespectful but he did manage to get the uniform correct. After being sentenced with a $250 fine and six months in prison, he brought it up to the Court of Appeals and eventually to the Supreme Court.
It was ruled that, as distasteful as it was, his performance was protected under the First Amendment. The Vietnam War protester inadvertently helped troops by taking away any excuse to not get our uniforms right in film, television, and theatrical performances.
I remember ages ago about there being some rule that military uniforms in productions were prohibited by law from being 100% accurate, and usually that would manifest itself by the collar devices being the wrong size, or one or two ribbons placed out of the proper order, etc. I wonder if that is the same law remarked on above that was struck down?
Yeah, that's the standard idea for uniforms...but Jonesy's uniform looks mostly right (they're dungarees which predated me so I can't be 100% sure). However, his rank is correct in size and appearance...aside from being simply the wrong rank per the dialogue.
That said, in this day and age of the Internet, caching, Wikipedia, and images galore, it's kind of silly to maintain that rule for uniforms in shows and films.
Ships, aircraft, vehicles, weapons, computer systems, etc.? Yeah, that makes sense.
Uniforms? Nahhh...all of that is easily findable and purchasable.
Also, there's the issue that real military tactics and practices in battle situations are classified and can't be included in works of fiction. I read a novel series about submarines written by a former submariner who always says in his Author's Notes that the action sequences in the novel are intentionally written as basic and generic to avoid unintentionally giving away anything about actual warfare tactics.
Tom Clancy ran into a similar situation while writing The Sum of All Fears. During his research, he was shocked and disturbed how easy it was to find instructions on how to build an actual nuclear bomb, so in the novel itself he intentionally left the working of a nuke extremely vague as he didn't want actual terrorists to use the novel as an instruction manual on how to build a real nuclear bomb.
Don't think it's a mistake. I'm pretty sure that the COB is telling a story about when then Seaman Jones was listening to Paganini. We know it happened sometime in the past because he was doing it when the sub was in the Pacific Ocean and not the Atlantic where the Dallas is when the COB is telling the story. (The boats that hear the music Seaman Jones is pumping out into the water are out of San Diego and Pearl.)And not only that, but the COB was played by the movie's screenwriter! Another reason he should have known better.
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I'd buy that if the rank difference was just one paygrade. But two? The odds of both of them serving that long on a single ship, let alone a submarine is unlikely. I don't how good making rank was back in the 80s, but it certainly fluctuated a lot in my time and it depended it on a lot of factors (probably different factors in the 80s). I also don't know what the sea to shore rotation timelines were like back then or how that would be for submarines, but I imagine it wouldn't be long enough for Jonesy to stay aboard for long enough to go from seaman to petty officer second class.
Look, I know I'm nitpicking the minutia but as someone who spent time in the Navy, something as "basic" as something as that situation is going to stand out a lot to me and an explanation such as that isn't going to work for me, at least not on the surface.
But at the end of the day, it's not a big deal. Like I said before, I love the hell out of this film but that one moment will always stand out to me.
I'm just glad no one's ribbons or rank insignia are upside down.
@The Nth Doctor I did serve in the 1980s and the Navy was offering all kinds of incentives for enlisting. Reagan was buiding the 600 ship Navy, after all.
I exited boot camp as an E-3 and A-school as an E-4 for signing up for a 4 active/2 inactive reserve Advanced Electronics Program (the most common hitch at the time was two years active/four inactive reserve.). That got rolled over to Electrician's Mate when my eyesight disqualled me for sub duty. Was an E-5 within three years. I extended so those two reserve years became active and I was working on E-6 when I separated.
But E-5 in four years without even really trying.
As for Jonesy, he most likely would have gone to sub school and then A-school, so, even without enlistment incentives, he could have been a E-3 before he even hit the boat. Then could have re-upped and asked to stay on the boat. Seaman Beaumont OTOH comes across as a striker.
The movie is not the best but it is better most every other one out there.
I exited boot camp as an E-3 and A-school as an E-4 for signing up for a 4 active/2 inactive reserve Advanced Electronics Program (the most common hitch at the time was two years active/four inactive reserve.). That got rolled over to Electrician's Mate when my eyesight disqualled me for sub duty. Was an E-5 within three years. I extended so those two reserve years became active and I was working on E-6 when I separated.
But E-5 in four years without even really trying.
As for Jonesy, he most likely would have gone to sub school and then A-school, so, even without enlistment incentives, he could have been a E-3 before he even hit the boat. Then could have re-upped and asked to stay on the boat. Seaman Beaumont OTOH comes across as a striker.
The movie is not the best but it is better most every other one out there.
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The dialogue doesn't come across that way:
"Seaman Jones here is into music in a big way, and he views this whole boat as his own personal, private stereo set."
Chief Watson isn't framing the story like "Back when Petty Officer Jones was just a seaman," he talks about him using what is meant to be his current (but incorrect) rank.
Jones is listed in the credits as "Seaman Jones," so at least that's consistent with the dialogue.
In the novel, he's "Sonar Technician 1st Class"; I know that "sonar technician" is a rating, not a rate, so would that make his rate E-6 (Petty Officer First Class)?
"Rating' and 'Rate' describe the same thing, not to be confused with rank or paygrade.
An enlisted sailor who holds a 'rate' (an MOS) is often referred to as a 'rating' as opposed to a 'seaman' or 'sailor.'
The rate, or rating, is his job specialty.
His paygrade is his rank, E-1 (Seaman Recruit) through E-10 (Master Chief Petty Officer)
Upon reaching E-4, the 'Seaman' becomes a 'Petty Officer.'
If you ask an E-5 whose rating is 'sonar technician' what his rank is, he'll tell you he's an E-5 or a Petty Officer 2nd Class. If you ask him his rate, he'll tell you he's a 'sonar technician, 2nd class.' The latter happens to include his rank information, if you are schooled on how all this works.
I know, it's clear as mud. Navyspeak is its own language. Let's not even get started on warrant officers.
An enlisted sailor who holds a 'rate' (an MOS) is often referred to as a 'rating' as opposed to a 'seaman' or 'sailor.'
The rate, or rating, is his job specialty.
His paygrade is his rank, E-1 (Seaman Recruit) through E-10 (Master Chief Petty Officer)
Upon reaching E-4, the 'Seaman' becomes a 'Petty Officer.'
If you ask an E-5 whose rating is 'sonar technician' what his rank is, he'll tell you he's an E-5 or a Petty Officer 2nd Class. If you ask him his rate, he'll tell you he's a 'sonar technician, 2nd class.' The latter happens to include his rank information, if you are schooled on how all this works.
I know, it's clear as mud. Navyspeak is its own language. Let's not even get started on warrant officers.
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Rate is the paygrade of an enlisted sailor, rank is the paygrade of an officer (In the US Navy anyway).
Rate titles are
For paygrades E-1 E-2 E-3: Seaman (Fireman, Airman) Recruit, Seaman (Fireman, Airman) Apprentice, Seaman (Fireman, Airman)
For paygrades E-4 E-5 E-6: Petty Officer 3rd Class, Petty Officer 2nd Class, Petty Officer 1st Class
For paygrades E-7 E-8 E-9: Chief Petty Officer, Senior Chief Petty Officer, Master Chief Petty Officer
Rating is the job an enlisted sailor does. Examples include Electrician's Mate, Boatswain's Mate, etc.
In practice, the two are usually combined to give something like Electrician's Mate Third Class Smith. This would be Smith's specific rate (as opposed to a generic Petty Officer Third Class Smith.).
Edit to add: A more in-depth explanation:
https://www.usni.org/magazines/nava...il/bluejackets-manual-ranks-rates-and-ratings
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"If he gets to ragging on you too bad, ask him about Pavarotti."
to which Jonesy replies with
"We don't have time for sea stories."
So it's a past event and given the exchange about the 'one way out at Pearl' a story the COB has told numerous times before.
Rate titles are
For paygrades E-1 E-2 E-3: Seaman (Fireman, Airman) Recruit, Seaman (Fireman, Airman) Apprentice, Seaman (Fireman, Airman)
For paygrades E-4 E-5 E-6: Petty Officer 3rd Class, Petty Officer 2nd Class, Petty Officer 1st Class
For paygrades E-7 E-8 E-9: Chief Petty Officer, Senior Chief Petty Officer, Master Chief Petty Officer
Rating is the job an enlisted sailor does. Examples include Electrician's Mate, Boatswain's Mate, etc.
In practice, the two are usually combined to give something like Electrician's Mate Third Class Smith. This would be Smith's specific rate (as opposed to a generic Petty Officer Third Class Smith.).
Edit to add: A more in-depth explanation:
https://www.usni.org/magazines/nava...il/bluejackets-manual-ranks-rates-and-ratings
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It does to me because it is set up by the COB telling Seaman Beaumont:
"If he gets to ragging on you too bad, ask him about Pavarotti."
to which Jonesy replies with
"We don't have time for sea stories."
So it's a past event and given the exchange about the 'one way out at Pearl' a story the COB has told numerous times before.
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Jonesy's rate has nothing to do with the story, though. It's totally disconnected from it.
Actually, his rate has everything to do with the story. He's a sonar tech, and he is the one who bascially analyzes what he is hearing, what the computer is telling him, and decodes Red October's silent drive for his captain and the American side. He's a technical expert in his rate, bordering on a prodigy. If his rate was torpedoman, he wouldn't have even been in the story.
agree to disagree. it's part of the story. Because everyone on the Dallas in the present calls him Jonesy. The Captain, the XO, even Seaman Beaumont.
@Jedi Marso You're actually wrong. rate does not equal rating. see my post above
I'm not going to quibble the fine points with you. I was a naval aviator, my dad and grandad were both enlisted radiomen, I had two other uncles who were enlisted ratings, and two more who were enlisted Marines. I grew up on navy bases my whole life. We are essentially saying the same thing, as far as I can see.
You can be 'right' if you want. Most of the general public don't have the first fucking clue what we're talking about anyway, and don't care.
Yeah, it's not like I didn't serve for a decade in the 1980s in both the USN and USNR as an enlisted myself. I lived it.
edit to add: Once I became an Electrician's Mate (EM), that rating for me never changed. But my rate did, going from EMFN to EM3 to EM2. That's why they aren't the same.
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Wouldn't Loginov be a GRU agent instead ? The Red October is a naval vessel and usually a military intelligence agency like the GRU would be in charge of anything military related.
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