The turbolift also moves at the speed of plot. I liked the turbolift scenes in Insurrection, because you could see on a viewscreen in the background where the pod was.
Humerous plot holes
- Thread starter Adagio
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Indeed. So ditch the rule: if it doesn't describe the language as it is used, it's incorrect and outdated.
Besides, "beg the question" in the sense of "make a circular argument" is geek jargon for a literally academic concept of logic, whereas "beg the question" in the sense of "express hope for the question to be asked" is plain and simple English. Geeks can use the former without impeding the general use of the latter.
Again, why do you think Sybok was unprepared for the use of transporters? It's not a plot hole unless he was unprepared. But he obviously was prepared, because any rescue operation, regardless of details of execution, would end with the rescuing ship being infused with Sybok's agents.
And? It was. Doesn't mean Sulu should or could have come up with a non-ridiculous excuse. He wasn't going to avoid or even delay getting transported to his ship - that would be a court-martial offense. It was all in good fun only. And Sulu could obviously count on Uhura covering for him.
I don't.
But there would have been some merit to using the decreasing-up numbering it would have been a countdown of sorts, with the ceiling approaching as the numbers got smaller...Even that wouldn't have worked right, though, because the countdown would never have reached zero. A vertical shaft could only reach Deck 7 or 8.
(Or perhaps the in-between Deck 78? After all, ST:TMP shows the silhouette of a turbolift cab that's way too tall to fit within any single saucer deck; perhaps the lifts travel between decks in the saucer, and pop up to Deck 7 or down to Deck 8 when needed...
)The same guy refused to set his ship to explode when four guys from Andromeda tried to conquer the entire Milky Way, this guy figuring out that the enemy could best be defeated by staying alive and seemingly subjugated.
Commissioner Bele didn't hold Kirk's crew hostage. The Kelvans did. ST5 is quite consistent in this respect...
Me, too. Usually, I hate the overly apologetic Trek novelizations that offer explanations and rationalizations even when none are actually needed; that's for web fori to do, not for professionally written entertainment... But in this case the literal treament of ST5 was a fairly nice read. Some of the stuff in there ought to have been iterated back to the movie dialogue.
...Most of mine with a thoroughly caffeinated one early in the morning. And I, too, think that ST5 was a pretty okay Trek film - I have more of a problem with ST6 where the tie-ins to then-current real-world events are so blatant and the plot so haphazardly sewn around them.
Timo Saloniemi
Don't get me started on TSFS....
Solid, transitionary film, but terrible where it matters
Logic
Why would the Federation leave the Mutara Sector without any form of constant Starfleet presence? A lowly crappy Science Ship is no real form of Defense fit for a "Galactic Controversy"
Why steal the Enterprise? Kirk and co are more than capable of "acquiring" the services of the Excelsior, a ship that would be more beneficial for a rescue mission in a potentially hazardous area, Don't give me any of that "But Starfleet didn't know Grissom was destroyed, um..If the Science Mission was that important, they would have designated check ins around the clock (which they were doing anyway) and if there was no response, something wouldn't sit right, Kirk would know (as a Flag Officer) and it would only motivate him to lead the rescue/investigation himself
David Marcus sees a large party of hostiles approaching in the distance, does he take Saavik and David and head off into the Wilderness? (a Planet he helped create, he knows it better than anyone) No! He takes a Phaser and goes after them, in an futile attempt to delay them, if he had any sense, he'd take both Phasers, hide, set one to overload and just as its about to blow, throw in the path of the Klingons and if any remain take them out (mind you he's not Starfleet, so we can't blame him)
Why did Kirk and Co not beam up Saavik, Spock and David as soon as they were in checkmate with the BOP? Both ships shields were down, they could have beamed them up and at the same time beamed the crew of the BOP down to Genesis and left them there, the Transporters were working and so were the sensors
Things left out
No Carol Marcus, seems a bit pointless after spending however many years developing the "Genesis Project" she decides not to bother being among the first to visit the Planet
No real explanation of how a "Mindless" Spock was able to not only open the Photon Tube...but walk a few Kilometres into a Snowfield and survive there for how ever many days it took for the Grissom to arrive at the Planet and lifeform
Obviously, how Starfleet knew Spock's Casket was found on the Genesis Planet, in the novel its stated that Grissom relayed the info to Starfleet, but in the film its never explained
Anyone else got anything to add to list?
Solid, transitionary film, but terrible where it matters
Logic
Why would the Federation leave the Mutara Sector without any form of constant Starfleet presence? A lowly crappy Science Ship is no real form of Defense fit for a "Galactic Controversy"
Why steal the Enterprise? Kirk and co are more than capable of "acquiring" the services of the Excelsior, a ship that would be more beneficial for a rescue mission in a potentially hazardous area, Don't give me any of that "But Starfleet didn't know Grissom was destroyed, um..If the Science Mission was that important, they would have designated check ins around the clock (which they were doing anyway) and if there was no response, something wouldn't sit right, Kirk would know (as a Flag Officer) and it would only motivate him to lead the rescue/investigation himself
David Marcus sees a large party of hostiles approaching in the distance, does he take Saavik and David and head off into the Wilderness? (a Planet he helped create, he knows it better than anyone) No! He takes a Phaser and goes after them, in an futile attempt to delay them, if he had any sense, he'd take both Phasers, hide, set one to overload and just as its about to blow, throw in the path of the Klingons and if any remain take them out (mind you he's not Starfleet, so we can't blame him)
Why did Kirk and Co not beam up Saavik, Spock and David as soon as they were in checkmate with the BOP? Both ships shields were down, they could have beamed them up and at the same time beamed the crew of the BOP down to Genesis and left them there, the Transporters were working and so were the sensors
Things left out
No Carol Marcus, seems a bit pointless after spending however many years developing the "Genesis Project" she decides not to bother being among the first to visit the Planet
No real explanation of how a "Mindless" Spock was able to not only open the Photon Tube...but walk a few Kilometres into a Snowfield and survive there for how ever many days it took for the Grissom to arrive at the Planet and lifeform
Obviously, how Starfleet knew Spock's Casket was found on the Genesis Planet, in the novel its stated that Grissom relayed the info to Starfleet, but in the film its never explained
Anyone else got anything to add to list?
Supposedly, the place was safe enough for top secret research before the incident took place. Probably deep inside UFP territory, then; no need to protect against a Klingon invasion, unless the Klingons came in an (snort! ridiculous!) invisible ship...
As for keeping away people who already have the permission to move within UFP territory, probably not a great concern. Sending in a fleet of warships would just confirm the Klingon claims that Genesis was a weapons research effort.
How? They can't steal a fully staffed ship. And they aren't exactly the most powerful people in Starfleet, or the least conspicuous. Kirk seems convinced that Morrow's word is final, and that he has used all his over-the-counter options at that point.
Caveman instincts won't help much against an enemy equipped with tricorders and an orbiting starship... The very fact that the Klingons hadn't already captured David's party via transporter, or bombed it out of existence from orbit, suggested that resistance would not be futile - that the Klingon party would be moving and acting with atypical caution and could indeed be delayed or discouraged.
The checkmate would cease the moment one side did something the other didn't like. Kirk would know the Klingons would destroy the Enterprise if their only ace was being pulled out of their hands.
Besides, beaming all the enemy out of their own ship is supposed to be difficult even with a more or less functional ship (see DS9 "Return to Grace"). Kirk's transporter room isn't staffed; what's he to do?
What snowfield? He probably walked on meadows overflowing with milk and honey. Note that when he's found, he's next to a cactus, which has only recently been covered in snow... And there's no indication of him walking any set distance, although several kilometers is not rare for lost children of that age. We do hear his scream when Marcus and Saavik stand next to the torpedo casing, so it's not all that far.
Opening a coffin is hard work today, because a coffin is supposed to be a coffin, and only a few luxury models in the 19th century were provided with an alarm bell, an air shaft and emergency digout supplies. Opening a photon torpedo casing might be trivial.
It is explained there: Right in his first scene, Esteban orders these news to be sent to Starfleet in code.
Why does Sarek want Spock's body to be recovered from Genesis? First he says that Spock's death in isolation means "all is lost"; there's no katra in the head of the corpse any more, apparently (I guess it ceases to exist as the brain winds down to death), and Sarek thus is no longer interested in the corpse. Then he learns the katra is in McCoy's noggin. What good is Spock's body at that point? Does Sarek leap to the conclusion that Spock's corpse has been reanimated, based on what he saw in Kirk's mind? Kirk did believe in reincarnation, sort of, at the end of ST2.
Not a big bad continuity error, just a curious leap of (il)logic on Sarek's part.
Timo Saloniemi
It seems like Kirk made a giant assumption, taking Sarek's request very literally. He was told to being "them" to Vulcan so both could find peace. That would mean McCoy with the Katra. Kirk, on the other hand, meant snatching up Spock's body. He went through all that crap, got Spock's body and Sarek was probably all like "dude, you didn't have to bring the corpse, but you know, since you did, we can try refusion."
Kirk, however, could have been thinking, "this wouldn't be the first time we had to restore Spock's Brain" and off he went. Or maybe Sarek said "wait a sec. Genesis is creating life down there, perhaps Spock's been regenerated. Check it out, bring back a body." Of course, this exchange would have happened while we were watching David and Saavik beam down.
Kirk, however, could have been thinking, "this wouldn't be the first time we had to restore Spock's Brain" and off he went. Or maybe Sarek said "wait a sec. Genesis is creating life down there, perhaps Spock's been regenerated. Check it out, bring back a body." Of course, this exchange would have happened while we were watching David and Saavik beam down.
I guess Kirk always wanted to go look for Spock's body on that planet, because he expresses the sentiment "Genesis=life from death -> I gotta get back" at the end of ST2, and then immediately wants to get back to Genesis at the beginning of ST3, even before Sarek's visit, as we hear when Morrow comes aboard.
But originally, Kirk is in no hurry; he's ready to wait until Scotty repairs the Enterprise, and happy to wait for his son and Saavik to do the survey of the planet first (but a bit worried he's not hearing back from them, which we later learn is because Genesis has become a point of controversy).
And he did leave Genesis at the end of ST2, even though he could probably have opted to stay. So either he thought that the Genesis magic would work on Spock very slowly, or then he didn't really believe in Spock's reincarnation but was merely curious about Genesis in general. I guess we could take ST3 as retroactively creating a ST2 plot hole in making it illogical for Kirk to leave Genesis...
Timo Saloniemi
But originally, Kirk is in no hurry; he's ready to wait until Scotty repairs the Enterprise, and happy to wait for his son and Saavik to do the survey of the planet first (but a bit worried he's not hearing back from them, which we later learn is because Genesis has become a point of controversy).
And he did leave Genesis at the end of ST2, even though he could probably have opted to stay. So either he thought that the Genesis magic would work on Spock very slowly, or then he didn't really believe in Spock's reincarnation but was merely curious about Genesis in general. I guess we could take ST3 as retroactively creating a ST2 plot hole in making it illogical for Kirk to leave Genesis...
Timo Saloniemi
Actually there would be no retroactive plot hole in 2. The reason they didn't stay was that they were leaving to go to Ceti Alpha to pick up the Reliant's crew.
TUC: This film was really made in a hurry, so I understand why some things got swept under the space rug. Having said that, here are a few. None of these are make or break, but they jump out at me and I have fun noticing and then ignoring them
"The thing's gotta have a tail pipe." While it could very well be SOP for starships to have equipment to catalog gaseous anomalies, it was Excelsior's primary mission at the beginning of the film. Had they been doing something else (like mapping Quasars or something wacky), this actually have been fine, if out of the blue. As t is, it's a hole, if a pluggable one.
"Let them die, you said." Valeris wasn't in the room to hear that. However, there was someone standing in the background, probably a guard or something. This person COULD have been part of the conspiracy.Or the room was bugged. Yet - it's never mentioned This is a common problem with Nick Meyer, it seems. In TWOK David tells Kirk that "you told Saavik that how we deal with death, etc." Sure, Saavik could have told him, nut it's left unexplained. Weird.
Martia suddenly uses someone else's voice. For most of the film, she uses the Iman voice no matter what form she takes. She becomes Kirk and suddenly uses his voice, which is convenient during the "kill him, he's the one" scene. That entire scene is really clumsy. Martia had plenty of time to change form and still be killed, but disintegrating Kirk made for a great shot in the trailer. The split screen is also badly coordinated. Shatner is very stiff and, as Martia, he points over Kirk's head when she says "he's the one." Even the "can't believe I kissed you" seems mismatched. As if they came up with that gag at the last minute. It doesn't fit the tone of the scene and Shatner's facial acting is really crazy. And the rolling Kirk's come at Bones from one angle and roll over him from another.
I am assuming the "since you're all going to die anyway, why not tell you?" line was satirical, poking fun at decades of bad guy's talking instead of shooting. It's a great bit, if so.
The criteria for the alarm going off changes from "an unauthorized phaser" to only going off if the shooter vaporizes the victims.
Valeris falling for the Burke and Samno trap. I dunno, I'm not sure she would have taken that bait. She wouldn't shoot them and then leave without confirming their deaths. But I wouldn't call being a sucker a plot hole.
And crewman Dax. Chekov, as security chief, should have looked up his file and then discovered his species. No boots for you! But again, being a dumbass isn't necessarily a plot hole.
Have at it, Timo!
"The thing's gotta have a tail pipe." While it could very well be SOP for starships to have equipment to catalog gaseous anomalies, it was Excelsior's primary mission at the beginning of the film. Had they been doing something else (like mapping Quasars or something wacky), this actually have been fine, if out of the blue. As t is, it's a hole, if a pluggable one.
"Let them die, you said." Valeris wasn't in the room to hear that. However, there was someone standing in the background, probably a guard or something. This person COULD have been part of the conspiracy.Or the room was bugged. Yet - it's never mentioned This is a common problem with Nick Meyer, it seems. In TWOK David tells Kirk that "you told Saavik that how we deal with death, etc." Sure, Saavik could have told him, nut it's left unexplained. Weird.
Martia suddenly uses someone else's voice. For most of the film, she uses the Iman voice no matter what form she takes. She becomes Kirk and suddenly uses his voice, which is convenient during the "kill him, he's the one" scene. That entire scene is really clumsy. Martia had plenty of time to change form and still be killed, but disintegrating Kirk made for a great shot in the trailer. The split screen is also badly coordinated. Shatner is very stiff and, as Martia, he points over Kirk's head when she says "he's the one." Even the "can't believe I kissed you" seems mismatched. As if they came up with that gag at the last minute. It doesn't fit the tone of the scene and Shatner's facial acting is really crazy. And the rolling Kirk's come at Bones from one angle and roll over him from another.
I am assuming the "since you're all going to die anyway, why not tell you?" line was satirical, poking fun at decades of bad guy's talking instead of shooting. It's a great bit, if so.
The criteria for the alarm going off changes from "an unauthorized phaser" to only going off if the shooter vaporizes the victims.
Valeris falling for the Burke and Samno trap. I dunno, I'm not sure she would have taken that bait. She wouldn't shoot them and then leave without confirming their deaths. But I wouldn't call being a sucker a plot hole.
And crewman Dax. Chekov, as security chief, should have looked up his file and then discovered his species. No boots for you! But again, being a dumbass isn't necessarily a plot hole.
Have at it, Timo!
With pleasure.Have at it, Timo!
This is actually a cutting issue: there originally was a line on every Starfleet vessel having this equipment aboard at the time, during the guided tour of the Enterprise for the Klingon troupe. It’s also a Meyerism, a Cold War allusion to the International Year of Geophysics which both sides used as an excuse for purely military research on a global scale. Or did we really think the Excelsior was only scanning strategically uninteresting planets with her new equipment while skirting the Klingon border?
Another Meyerism there… In every paranoia movie, there’s this bit about your words being used against you even if you uttered them in seeming privacy (say, in the safety of your own home, to your wife or best buddy). A bugged conference room sounds just about right.
She does that to fool people into thinking she’s somebody else. She uses her own voice when she wants people to realize that “it is I, Leclerc”… Thus, Iman voice in the presence of our heroes, except when she wants to play with them.
Martia's a "physical" shapeshifter like Odo; as the shackle trick demonstrates, she actually changes size instead of creating an illusion of doing so (unless that was a fake leg iron...) . She'd thus probably be capable of altering her vocal cords at will, too.
It’s nicely consistent with TOS, though. Back then, we didn’t get alarms when authorized phasers were fired at vaporize (say, redshirts desperately firing at Nomad), but neither did unauthorized non-vaporizing firing trigger an alarm (Karidian Jr killing the frail Karidian Sr with a point-blank shot – and probably also Rand warming up Kirk’s coffee!). If the alarm covered non-disintegrating use in TUC, the movie would be in contradiction with the alarm-free TOS.
What options did she have, though? If she thought it was a trap, she knew she was already as good as caught. She could have served the conspiracy one final time, say, by assassinating Kirk or blowing up the ship – but she apparently wasn’t the suicidal type. Her best odds of extricating herself were to eliminate the witnesses, or to surrender, and she could achieve both by going to Sickbay.
In this era, though, our heroes don’t seem to have portable access to records. We don’t know how long Chekov waited for Dax to arrive; might have been just a few seconds, really, not long enough to do any checking.
The bigger hole there is that Valeris (Burke? Samno?) didn’t check the nature of Dax’ feet in advance. That eliminated a few hours of confusion that the trick could have achieved, had Chekov arrested and interrogated the poor guy, and then a few hours more had the search for the real owners of the boots continued. The Dax debacle apparently terminated that line of inquiry there and then. But probably Valeris didn’t have the time, either. Or perhaps she thought it better that the owner of the locker would not be interrogated, because that might have uncovered her (Burke’s? Samno’s?) complicity; better have Chekov withdraw red-faced.
Timo Saloniemi
Because God asked for a Starship.
And by Jove, if the Almighty asks for a Starship, and you show up with a garbage scow - well, all I can say is, I would hope plague and famine is something you enjoy.
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