How would you rewrite Endgame?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by chris of nine, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So were Kim and Chakotay in "Timeless" (and Jake in "The Visitor") big villains?

    The actual "Endgame" acknowledges that Future Janeway's intention is at best ethically dubious, and also has present Janeway (and, less believably, eventually also Future Janeway herself) reject it.
     
  2. Jonesy

    Jonesy Commodore Commodore

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    My problems with "Endgame" are at the core of what the episode is about. (spoilers of course)

    The first thing that would go is the whole concept of Future Janeway going back in time to tell her past self that she is (basically) a moron for ignoring a potential gateway back home, and saving the crew additional years of struggle and death(s). My issue with this is that it basically reduces and renders current timeline Janeway to a fool, especially since Future Janeway's critique of her past self is so strong (some would say correct?)

    I would have the episode instead feature the strengths of the crew, both individually and as a team to solve the goal. I could state that this is what happened with the DS9 and TNG finales, but this is what all good stories (and endings) should have.

    Instead, Endgame's narrative is driven almost singlehandedly by Future Janeway. She's the one with the plan (in the future). She's the one who gets the device to send her back in time, and she uses deus ex machina technology to "refit" Voyager to beat the Borg. Even towards the end, when the Borg queen think she has the upper hand, Future Janeway has another piece of tech up her sleeve to disrupt them.

    Seven years of watching these people battle their way out of all kinds of situations is concluded by watching Future Janeway hand-holding them through this dilemma.

    So, I'd re-write the episode and completely eliminate Future Janeway entirely. I would instead write in Janeway and her crew figuring out on their own how to enter the Borg transwarp hub and return home. I'd give all of the bridge crew one more moment or scene that showcases their strengths as characters. But I'd have the Voyager crew taking on the transwarp hub and the Borg without any kind of story cheat(s).
     
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  3. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was fine for everyone in the universe who was not Chakotay and Seven of Nine. Because let's face it: those two were all future Janeway cared about. She didn't give a flying frak about anyone else.
     
  4. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree about ditching future Janeway, but there's no way she(present tense Janeway) could have known there was a borg intergalactic depot in that Nebula, and if she had, there's nothing she could have done about it.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They should have come home via Deep Space Nine so that Harry could kick the #### out of Quark for messing with him seven years earlier.
     
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  6. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Maybe but I would add Tuvok to your list because she was very fond of him as a friend who was always dear to her. That being said, I disagree with you when you say that Chakotay & Seven were the only one future Janeway care. I really think that the actions of future Janeway were to bring back on Earth maybe not her entire crew (because let's be honest, it was an impossible mission even for her) but at least 80% of it because until the end, she felt responsible of the decision she has taken in The Caretaker and the consequences on her crew.
    I regret that the writers didn't show how Janeway really cared for her crew and how she would/could be ready to do everything possible to bring them back at home safe, including betraying her own principles.
     
  7. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Then why didn't Admiral Janeway go back further and change things in the badlands before Janeway and Chakotay were taken to the Delta quadrant?
     
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  8. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If she has chosen to go back further, she would have never got what she and her crew lived - minus the 50 crew members who died in The Caretaker - and I'd add that it was because of her exploits in DQ that she was promoted Vice Admiral and got the time, means, experience and health (thanks to the Doctor) to make the travel in the past.
     
  9. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Doesn't make much sense since she dies in the process. BTW, what kind of virus is that that infects the whole collective at FTL speed? I mean it can't be a computer virus unless unbeknownst to us Janeway is really a ROBOT. So? What kind of virus is it?
     
  10. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hadn't thought about that one.

    If Old Janeway had a "logic bomb" virus (not computer virus) in her brain, in her memories, then when she was being assimilated and connected to the collective, that virus would have been uploaded into the collective. This would have happen as fast as the speed that the collective operates.

    Subspace communications.
     
  11. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the reason. For all intents and purposes, future Janeway just picked some random point in time to return to, the only logic being that it was a point in time when Chakotay and Seven were still alive. She didn’t give a flip about the crew’s Delta Quadrant exploits or even that she could have saved Carey’s life if she’d gone back even just a few weeks before.
     
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  12. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She had only two options:

    -Go back to before Caretaker, and forget about Seven, Chakotay, B'elanna, et al
    or
    -Go back to the point where they pass the Nebula with the Borg portals, which is what she chose.
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why couldn't she go back early enough to save Carey?
     
  14. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    i suppose because if she did that, she would have to wait around on Voyager for however many months until they reached the Borg nebula, adding any number of potential risks that might jeopardize her plan. So she went straight to the moment of opportunity and got captain Janeway to do it before she could change her mind.
     
  15. Jonesy

    Jonesy Commodore Commodore

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    It's been about a half a year since I saw the episode, but to my recollection it was highly suggested (by Seven I believe) that there would be a transwarp hub that they could use. In any case, the episode still goes out of its way to have Future Janeway criticize present-day Janeway's decision to ignore it and not investigate it.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wasn't under the impression that months pass between Carey's death and "Endgame", though it's been awhile.
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Carey died in s07e21, and Endgame started at s07e25.

    There isn't a week between episodes, otherwise interesting things only happen on Mondays, and 5 months of the year absolutely nothing noteworthy happens, unless that's when the novels and comics happen?
    Janeway said something like "You once told me that there are 6 transwarp hubs in the Galaxy" to Seven, just after they identified what this Borg Strong Hold was. Seven knew what it was, but she didn't know that it was near or right in front of them, until then found it. Maybe her memories were edited by the Collective at some point?

    Q.

    They cannot time-travel in any way that will annoy Q, and Q's timeline and Q-Continuum's timeline. They will feel it happening, and it will piss them off.

    Waaaay back in Eye of the Needle Chakotay says to that Romulan Commander "We've had too much (positive?) impact on the Delta Quadrant, so don't stop us getting brought here."

    Janeway shows up seconds after Chakotay and Seven start dating. If she shows up earlier, then maybe the Chuckles and the Borgette don't date.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So...win-win?
     
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  19. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wikipedia says Friendship takes place on Stardate 54775 and Endgame o. 54973, so however long that is.

    He says it again in season 7's "Shattered" when he again scolds Janeway for wanting to change the timeline. Shattered would have made a really good finale, actually.
     
  20. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think anything could have stopped their pairing. She was already in love with him, and hes a desperately lonely man. And he meets the criteria for Borg perfection. Perfect teeth, perfect chin, perfect tv smile, and she probably liked his tatt