You're right, and that's why the PtBs behind it were able to combine the Serialized and the Episodic in making it.
How would you change the show?
- Thread starter Admiral Jean-Luc Picard
- Start date
You're right, and that's why the PtBs behind it were able to combine the Serialized and the Episodic in making it.
Not really.
Take the Kazon arc in season 2, particularly the traitor arc with Jonas and Tom behaving badly to flush out the spy. Doing serialized with the Kazon was a good idea on paper, but because it was the Kazon (whom the vast majority of fans didn't care for), it wasn't well received. VOYAGER didn't really do serialized on that level again until the very loosely serial Hirogen episodes of season 4.
Honestly, the only real serialization was loose ones with getting in contact with Starfleet, Tom and B'Elanna, and Seven. The series could very easily have done more in depth serialization, but the suits didn't want that. (Which is what you said, and I agree and have said myself in the past.)
Take the Kazon arc in season 2, particularly the traitor arc with Jonas and Tom behaving badly to flush out the spy. Doing serialized with the Kazon was a good idea on paper, but because it was the Kazon (whom the vast majority of fans didn't care for), it wasn't well received. VOYAGER didn't really do serialized on that level again until the very loosely serial Hirogen episodes of season 4.
Honestly, the only real serialization was loose ones with getting in contact with Starfleet, Tom and B'Elanna, and Seven. The series could very easily have done more in depth serialization, but the suits didn't want that. (Which is what you said, and I agree and have said myself in the past.)
Voyager's serialization was implemented through ongoing character arcs, multi-part episodes, and the seeding of ideas in an episode or season that would not be paid off until later episodes or seasons, all of which are the same ways through which serialization was incorporated into series such as The X-Files, Bones, Fringe, and Elementary (to name but a few examples).
FRINGE and especially THE X-FILES had many mythology based episodes and arcs. Never seen BONES or ELEMENTARY (though knowing Robert Hewitt Wolfe was a producer for it, I wouldn't be surprised if there were arcs), so I can't speak to those shows.
Actually putting VOYAGER in the same league of mythology arcs and serialization as FRINGE or THE X-FILES is ludicrous. VOYAGER was good about some things, but that definitely was not one of them.
(I'll agree about some character arcs, which I listed a couple already. Tom/B'Elanna, The Doctor, Seven. But multi-episode serials? Except the Kazon arc on season 2 and the loose Hirogen arc in season 4, they didn't do that. And I'm not counting two-parters.)
Actually putting VOYAGER in the same league of mythology arcs and serialization as FRINGE or THE X-FILES is ludicrous. VOYAGER was good about some things, but that definitely was not one of them.
(I'll agree about some character arcs, which I listed a couple already. Tom/B'Elanna, The Doctor, Seven. But multi-episode serials? Except the Kazon arc on season 2 and the loose Hirogen arc in season 4, they didn't do that. And I'm not counting two-parters.)
Yes, of course. And I feel that Voyager found a way to satisfy some of the customers enough. However, I'll freely admit I was not one of them.
I think that it is, because progress towards the goal, i.e. closer to home, indicates a measure of progress and consequences in the storytelling.
Sometimes. But, a lot of times it just ignored the last episode and when along with it.
Here are some examples of story ideas that were seeded or otherwise spread out across multiple episodes and seasons:
* The tension between Tom and Neelix with regards to Kes
* The Q Civil War
* Conflict with the Hirogen
* Conflict with the Borg
* Conflict with Species 8472
* Conflict with the Vidiians
* The Year of Hell
* Fair Haven
* Transgression of the Temporal Accords
* Janeway's interactions with a holographic Leonardo Davinci
That's just off the top of my head, and is but a fraction of examples.
Also, my comparison of Voyager to The X-Files and Fringe (as well as Bones and Elementary) was made strictly on the basis of all four series being Procedural Dramas that also incorporated significant elements of serialization.
Okay, regarding your examples...
Neelix/Tom/Kes... that situation was in only TWO episodes, "ELOGIUM" and "PARTURITION". The former episode only had Tom helping Kes bring airponics packages, and we see Neelix getting jealous... no indication of Tom having feelings, like he mentioned to Harry in the latter one. The writers saw it was a bad thing, and thankfully ended it right there. Two episodes is NOT an arc.
Q civil war... occured in only ONE episode, "THE Q AND THE GREY". The event that led to it was just a single episode, "DEATH WISH". Again, only two episodes.
Hirogen conflict... I already mentioned that example and conceded to that point.
Conflict with the Borg... okay, I'll grant that. (They were WAY overrused, though.)
Conflict with Species 8472... technically three episodes, okay. But it was a two-parter and a single episode. That's very thin, but okay, I'll throw you that bone as a 'multi-episode' arc.
Conflict with the Vidiians... okay, granted. (They are, by the way, what I consider the best villains the series created.)
Year of hell... you mean, the two-parter? Because everything in "BEFORE AND AFTER" was clearly forgotten since the Krenim were unknown to the crew despite Kes writing a report on everything at the end of the episode. No, not an arc. This was a reset button that used a second reset button at the end... one of the most blatant examples of the reset button ever.
Fair Haven... only TWO episodes had it. Thankfully. Not an arc.
Transgression of the Temporal Accords... not sure what you mean. I know time travel was used a lot on the show, but what are you referring to?
Janeway and Da Vinci... only TWO episodes had him. Not an arc.
I'll agree that in many of these examples, the two episodes occur in one season then at sometime in the next. But two episodes are NOT arcs.
An arc would be like Sisko hating his being called Emissary, starting to accept, and later fully immersing himself in the role. Multiple episodes across most of the series.
An arc would be like Jake working with O'Brien, we learn he doesn't want to be in Starfleet, find out he wants to be a writer, and becomes a correspondent for the Federation News Service.
An arc would be Nog. The entire series.
An arc would be Kira. The entire series.
An arc would be Hoshi. Going from completely frightened ensign to getting enough confidence from her experiences throughout the show that she stands her ground with the Earth president in "TERRA PRIME".
Arcs involve more than 2 episodes (even if they are in different seasons). VOYAGER did not do many arcs.
Last edited:
Voyager is not a Trek series I dislike (that's reserved for another), but it is the one I'm most disappointed with because the premise wasn't allowed to be the premise. They could've done some great stories about a ship being alone, making repairs on the fly, with two opposing crews trying to work together, scraping together resources and supplies as best they can, all without any real chance of getting home within most of the crews lifetime. I'm not saying that the show needed to be as dark and bleak as NuBSG or SGU (though I'm also not not saying that) in order to succeed, but it needed to emphasise the struggle they were going through to do things the E-D just took for granted, whilst making things harder on the crew, making them do an Equinox and question their principles when things were at their worst only to hold on tight to the ideals of Starfleet and the optimism for the future/humanity that Trek has been about would only shine through brighter in those times when all hope looks lost. There is so much fodder there to put the characters through the wringer and have them change and grow and flourish into new versions of themselves, it would've made even the dullest characters (Chakotay and Kim) interesting over time.
But alas, that wasn't to be.
In Procedural television, an arc-based story is generally unfolded through the implanting of an idea, character beat, or plot thread that is the focus of an episode, seemingly resolved, and then later followed up on in a later episode either as the focus of said episode or through a specific individual character's story.
When looked at through the structural lens of Procedural storytelling, all of the things I mentioned are valid examples of serialized storytelling arcs.
But VOYAGER is NOT a Procedural. I have never once, since the series premiered, ever heard the show be called a Procedural. CSI, NYPD BLUE, JAG... those are Procedurals.
And even if, by some chance, a single person besides yourself calls VOYAGER a Procedural, how the hell can anyone call only TWO episodes an arc?
(Picard facepalm)
You know what? Forget it. I don't feel like running in circles again with someone else. Think whatever you want, and I'll do the same. I'm finished with this subject.
And even if, by some chance, a single person besides yourself calls VOYAGER a Procedural, how the hell can anyone call only TWO episodes an arc?
(Picard facepalm)
You know what? Forget it. I don't feel like running in circles again with someone else. Think whatever you want, and I'll do the same. I'm finished with this subject.
Small beats do not make a procedural. Voyager had some good episodes, and times were continuity was used in a positive way. But, that wasn't week to week. It wasn't written as a procedural. I'm currently rewatching JAG and past events are routinely referred to, even years later.
Voyager would forgot information sometimes, characters would be static, events not referenced. It was TNG style but not sold as such.
Sad but I have to agree.
I disagree.
And that's fair. But, part of my dissatisfaction with Voyager is it had moments of greatness but then ignored that for the sake of syndication. Which is fine but not why Voyager appealed to me in the first place.
Voyager was a show that could have served up a four course gourmet dinner and wound up serving meat loaf and mac n' cheese because they thought the audience wanted that.
Possibly the best analogy for VOYAGER I have ever heard in my life.
^ What he said!
The Odyssey is mostly about Odysseus farting around on Circe's Island and then going home. Nothing more.
I meant 75 years, sorry. No one on the writing staff believed they'd be trapped away from home forever, so they didn't care to write the characters that way either.
Yes, and as a result NuBSG ran out of steam after 2 seasons, fell apart in the 3rd and needed literal Deus Ex Machina to have any kind of ending in S4.
Maybe, but it's still something that would be better off with Romulans as the 2nd crew.
And Gowron. Also the Cardassians were already set up in TNG, as well as the Ferengi.
Sure...if VOY had been given a pre-made Quadrant with pre-existing aliens and political setups that prior shows had done.
But the Bajorans were already set up by TNG.
And even then, the show had to do a soft reboot in S3 because they exhausted their old plots by then.
And if VOY did that, there'd be Hell to pay. In fact, when we saw the 8472 aliens be able to do any damage to the Borg at all, there was Hell to pay.
Too little, too late.
Sure, they could do that...if the main cast was smaller so that they didn't feel like they were screwing the main cast out of spotlight.
Farscape never explained how they maintained Moya, so VOY could be the same.
The way folks wrote it off after "Caretaker", I wouldn't say so...
Oh, but it's fine for every other show that did the same thing except their audiences weren't dead set against anything new?
Last edited:
First off, if you read my post, I said 'of the character examples you listed', and Gowron's name was NOT there. And even if it was, okay TNG started him, but it doesn't matter because DS9 had a LOT more of their own characters.
And the Cardassians and Ferengi are not characters. They are species. There are characters made up from those species, and except for Madred and the one Jellico was dealing with, no other Cardassians appeared more than once. (And those two are only because it was a two-parter.)
And no, Gul Evek first appeared on DS9 in "PLAYING GOD" before he appeared on TNG's "Journey's End", so don't try it.
And yes, the premise of VOYAGER lent itself to more recurring characters because they are on the same ship.
Also, my talking about many recurring characters having nothing or little to do with the Dominion War was in direct response to your statement of 'they needed the characters for their big Galactic War', which the Bajorans really were not part of it. (They signed the non-aggression pact.)
And by the way, FARSCAPE does explain how Moya was maintained. Or have you forgotten about the drds that appeared in EVERY SINGLE EPISODE, doing repairs, searching the decks for issues, being part of the solutions, etc.
The writers burned every bridge and did the bait and switch too many times. So, yeah, that's why.
Sorry, but the writers did it to themselves.
Similar threads
