How would things like copyright be enforced in a no money economy?
What possible compensation could you ask for?
What possible compensation could you ask for?
How would a society with no money work?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
- Start date
I think the task should be to to imagine a system based upon what is presented on the show. I also think that it possible for characters on the show to misspeak, or for their statement not to be all inclusive.
One example of the later would be when Picard says "we seek to improve ourselves and ...," there the "we" likely isn't the entire population of the Federation, or the entire Human species. I've thought for some time that when Picard was speaking to the 20th century businessman Offenhouse that Picard was advocating a philosophy that Picard himself was a proponent of. However, that same philosophy wouldn't be the sole philosophy of all Humans.
In the Star Trek TNG writers and directors guide (the bible?), on page two under "Ship's Mission," the second sentence says "To provide assistance as require to Earth/Federation colonies, commerce, and travelers. Without getting into the words change debate, commerce refers to buying and selling of good and services
Going from that, Starfleet protects commerce, which means there is commerce in the 24th century.
If we look briefly at The Troubles with Tribbles. Before Uhura was given a tribble, she clearly intended to buy one, but it doesn't appear the she was carrying "species" or a bank card of some type. Chekov previously said Uhura was on the spacestation to engage in shopping.[/
Moving forward to Farpoint, Crusher made her payment verbally, there was no physical object involved. My take on this is that purchases are made using a combination of voice prints, biometrics, and possibly DNA. On DS9, if you order from the repli-mat, simply ordering and recieving that order results in a financial transaction taking place.
But we hear of people who don't have replicators, how could the economy change if a portion of the population lacks the device that results in the change?
There's no dialog that the O'Brien family refused to have a replicator, but we do know that they didn't have one. Perhaps it was too expensive?
One scene in DS9 makes it obvious that Sisko's restaurant serves at least some food that isn't replicated.[/
Robert Picard wouldn't have a replictor in his house, he doesn't approve of them. Does it make sense that he would travel into town and buy/acquire replicated food and items
From the evidence of the show, the replicator isn't a essential device in the Earth economy. It isn't that they don't exist, but from our sampling of Earth's population, they are not ubiquitous.
IIRC, the inventor of the Solaton Wave intended to make money off of it. If someone could simply purchase one, take it apart and build their own version, that woud seem ot defeat his intent.
So there would seem to be some form of intellectual property rights in the 24th century.
I think your best bet is to accept that "no money" simply means no notes/coins and that there clearly is a currency at work. Perhaps Starfleet people (the Federation people we see the most) are simply shielded from the realities of Federation economics. They exist in a privileged bubble of sorts and don't fully understand the economy and cannot speak for everyone within the Federation.
Why was Bilby working for the syndicate? Why not just go home to Earth and live in comfort?
Why were Ezri's family running a mine? If someone says to "better themselves", I'm gonna punch the wall.
What luxuries? What could someone want that they couldn't actually have without paying for it? Property?
If there are luxuries such as property that some can have that others can't, then that sounds like an extremely unequal society.
That's pretty much the reason for the VOY episode "Author, Author", innit?
^ Easy answer is that she lacked the means to leave, she also might not have realized that anywhere else wasn't just more of the same.
With the replicator why is there mining at all? Why not simply replicate whatever is being mined? Unless there is a reason that mining is preferred over replication. This would make sense if replicating materials came at a financial cost, and mining the same materials were cheaper to mining a far off star system and then transport it to where they were needed.
In The Quality of Life, one of the initial problems is the extraction method was "well behind schedule." If the people running and working the mine were doing so basically as an interesting hobby intended to better themselves, what difference would it make if they were behind schedule?
So what? It's not like they risk not being paid if they don't make their quota Nor should they worry about the possibility of being fired since technically nobody "works" at the mine.
They're all just volunteers right?
On the other hand, if the mine is a working business, there would be a problem with not being on schedule, and not getting the product into orbit for trans-shipment would be a problem, and a business worried about their profits could seek the technical assistance of Starfleet.
That's part of why Starfleet exists, your tax money at work.
And speaking of mining, the events of The Quality of Life raises question.
With the replicator why is there mining at all? Why not simply replicate whatever is being mined? Unless there is a reason that mining is preferred over replication. This would make sense if replicating materials came at a financial cost, and mining the same materials were cheaper to mining a far off star system and then transport it to where they were needed.
In The Quality of Life, one of the initial problems is the extraction method was "well behind schedule." If the people running and working the mine were doing so basically as an interesting hobby intended to better themselves, what difference would it make if they were behind schedule?
So what? It's not like they risk not being paid if they don't make their quota Nor should they worry about the possibility of being fired since technically nobody "works" at the mine.
They're all just volunteers right?
On the other hand, if the mine is a working business, there would be a problem with not being on schedule, and not getting the product into orbit for trans-shipment would be a problem, and a business worried about their profits could seek the technical assistance of Starfleet.
That's part of why Starfleet exists, your tax money at work.
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That would be I believe a cop-out. We are presented with the concept that the Federation or at minimum Earth does not use currency based economics (no specie or credits) and they repeat this concept over the course of 14 years from TNG to Voyager. Instances that would more or less contradict this concept I would count as the writers not knowing how to make that work or being lazy becuase they had a story idea and couldn't come up with something else (or mostly didn't care. Story first, universal setting?....whatever, the audiance won't care).
The examples for Uhura and any TOS cast are 23rd century.
O'Brien and Robert Picard's mentioning of the devices might mean they are still relatively new even in the 24th century. Robert being old fashion is a given. O'Brien's family is not as clear, but given how traditional he seems at times, his parents might have been of Robert's mindset and didn't trust the newfangled thing. Much like McCoy doesn't trust transporters even though they've been around longer than he has.
Several other examples are people outside the Federation, or what traditionally would be considered outside the Federation. New Sydney and Farius Prime not Federation planets and the Orion Sydicate is not part of the Federation. Turkana IV is no longer a Federation planet (it left the Federation on its own) and called a failed colony.
"The Quality of Life" was told in the setting of an experimental mining station that was no living up to the design teamed projected results. More efficient means of mining. Replicators still need materials and energy to replicate and there are things the replicator cannot replicate (Latinum for one). Bulk minerals might be more energy efficient than replication for large scale projects. Or there are grandfathered contracts from other species that require X amount of specific minerals to remain allied with the Federation and they deturmine that they do not want replicated goods, therefore the Federation must stay within the realm of treaty and mine the goods to maintain an ally.
Or the writer wanted to tell a story about living robots and needed a setting without much care to what it might mean since it would be a familiar setting for things to go wrong. Getting the science details down fine. Ignoring the economic details entirely, as the show is science fiction, not economic fiction. Tell a human story. Tell a science tale to tell a human story. Economic? Why would we want to go into that, that's almost inhuman an why Roddenberry was going to say humans were above that in his stories. Save people forget, didn't care, or like many here, call it bullshit and ignore Gene's concept as impossible.
Oh and it is possible for volunteers to be fired for not doing what they volunteered to do. You then look for new volunteers.
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^ New Sydney wasn't even in Federation territory. It was an independent colony world.
^Trill is part of the Federation though so why engage in such hard, laborious, dangerous work when there is comfort and a replicator at home?
Clearly, there is a desire for profit/wealth/status among many federation citizens which contradicts what Picard said about "bettering ourselves" and I see no reason why this desire shouldn't also extend to Earth.
So if he's wrong about that, why can't he also be wrong about the details of the economy. As I said before, I think the best explanation is that Starfleet people are perhaps a little ignorant of what's really happening in the Federation. They have a basic awareness of the society as a whole but lack greater insight.
Ask a conservative millionaire today for his assessment of the conditions experienced by the poor and I suspect it will be inaccurate, biased and uninformed.
I also agree with T'Girl about the replicator coming at a cost or having limits. Personally, I would say it makes more sense for mining to still exists because there are clearly some things the replicator simply cannot successfully replicate/produce.
There isn't an icon for punching the wall so this 
will have to do
Clearly, there is a desire for profit/wealth/status among many federation citizens which contradicts what Picard said about "bettering ourselves" and I see no reason why this desire shouldn't also extend to Earth.
So if he's wrong about that, why can't he also be wrong about the details of the economy. As I said before, I think the best explanation is that Starfleet people are perhaps a little ignorant of what's really happening in the Federation. They have a basic awareness of the society as a whole but lack greater insight.
Ask a conservative millionaire today for his assessment of the conditions experienced by the poor and I suspect it will be inaccurate, biased and uninformed.
I also agree with T'Girl about the replicator coming at a cost or having limits. Personally, I would say it makes more sense for mining to still exists because there are clearly some things the replicator simply cannot successfully replicate/produce.
There isn't an icon for punching the wall so this will have to do
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How long have the Tegan's been off Trill? How many members of the Orion Syndicate would start breaking finger if they pull out of their contracts? As said, New Sydney is not a Federation planet. Why? I don't know, it was likely named by Earth people after Sydney, Australia. Yet for some reason it is not part of the Federation. Did they leave during the age of United Earth (before Australia joined?), did they never join the Federation? Were they absorbed by the Orions? We know the Orion Syndicate or at least the Orions have been known for criminal activities (by human standards at least) since before the formation of the United Federation of Planets and probably before Earth even had warp drives.
How long has Trill been part of the Federation for that matter? Are they part of the Federation? Odan being joined was more or less an unknown to the Federation as late as the 2360s. Dax on the other hand seemed to have been everyplace in the 23rd and 24th centuries.
Seems to me that Trill wouldn't have to be a member of the Federation to have access to replicators, for that matter neither would New Sydney. So why work in the mines?
Unless you need money to make your replicator operate.
While not Federation or Earth territory, the planet (based on it's name and the name of it's star) was Human territory, so not all Humans embrace the philosophy advocated by Picard. The planet also had Trill who didn't follow the no money thing.
Why would our understanding of a economic system, where that understanding is based on what was actually seen be a "cop out?" Anything Gene Roddenberry said is essentially meaningless unless his ideas made it on to the screen or into the dialog.
Nog said Humans abandoned currency, not the Federation or Earth.
And during that same time period we hear of a Federation Member possessing a banks, and corporations within the Federation owning planets, and a Starfleet officer having a financial account, and Starfleet officers buying things, and a piano player on a Federation planet asking for a tip.
I don't think anyone is claiming that physical money is in play, that's an non-issue. As for credits, the existence or non-existence of such was never mentioned in a episode.
However, in Quark's bar there was a "ATM machine." It was a part of the set dressing, it usually sat in the background and it got moved around a lot, the controls let you pick what kind of "species" would be dispensed, one of those choices was credits.
The writers approached Roddenberry to have him explain the system so they could incorporate it into stories, Roddenberry couldn't, apparently he didn't understand it either.
Regardless of the reasons, what the writers included in the scripts is a part of the Trek-universe.
Meant to illustrate how a non-"species" payment system could work, which pertained to Crusher's purchase in the 24th century..
But some of those example are of Humans, regardless in they reside in or out of the Federation they are still Humans.
All that is true, I'm not sure of the point you're attempting to make.
And in a supposed economic system where money doesn't exist, if their methods are in fact inefficient, so what?
If the new technique doesn't work it would make no difference, no one is out of anything, certainly not out of money. There's no investments or profits to lose. The workers would not have to worry about the company going out of business, because in a conventional sense it wasn't "in business" in the first place. No one would have to concern themselves with losing their jobs, because their just volunteering their time anyway.
No one is getting paid anything ... right?
So what difference does it make if the particle fountain is inefficient?
But if all energy is free, why would it matter if the replicator on a planet wasn't energy efficient? Just build another reactor, or better still hundreds of reactors. None of them cost any money, because there is no money.
On the other hand, if economics was a factor then there would be a cost benefit to employing the most cost effective method of obtaining the materials.
If it was cheaper to both mine raw materials and ship the materials interstellar distances to (say) Earth, as opposed to replicating those same materials on Earth, then it would make sense from a financial point of view to mine and ship.
Because you would have to worry about things like return on investment, and paying off financial loans, and the board of directors, and millions of stockholders.
No. What is said is that there is no currency based economics. It never saids there is no economy. There is something there, but it does not use any form of currency as a media for transactions within Federation space. At least by the time the Enterprise-D is in commission.
The question which people keep avoiding is, "how does that work?" Most just say it doesn't and call the whole thing bullshit from Roddenberry's old brain.
Even in a econonic system that does not use any form a currency, efficiency is still wanted. Waste is still waste. Engine efficiency was desirable on the Enterprise, yet no economy is in play there. Just because no one is paid doesn't mean things don't get done. It seems that it is our own minds that cannot grasp a system that does not use currency for compensation. Were things still have stockholders, financial loans, and the goal of profit. Yet we are repeatedly told these sorts of things are not done anymore. I don't think Picard is living in some bubble delusion of his own making since he is not the only one to tell us this. If he was the only one, we could say he was living in his own little private Starfleet higher than thou bubble. But he's not the only one. Therefore we just assume he is telling the truth, and that Nog is telling he truth, and that Paris and Janeway are telling the truth.
As for the meditation lamp, I think Janeway was just telling a yarn to Kes for conversation. Kes' response seems to indicate that.
Nog's use of "Humans" in his talk with Jake would be defined on Jake being from Earth and a Federation citizen. To discount his word based on seeing humans that operate outside the Federation using currency would be incorrect, as it would be forcing the usage of the term as based on "all Humans" when we know that not all humans are within the Federation, nor are all humans part of the Federation, nor do all human even know of the Federation. The people from 1937 in the Delta Quadrant had no idea the Federation exists, nor do other isolated colonies that starships run into everyonce in a while that left Earth back in the late 21st and early 22nd centuries. Several worlds are known to not be part of the Federation for one reason or another that have human populations. Some are not even from Earth yet are Human somehow as Kirk's Enterprise kept running into planets full of humans that were not of Earth. So do not use Nog's usage of "Humans" as a proof against his own words on Jake's economics based problem.
The question which people keep avoiding is, "how does that work?" Most just say it doesn't and call the whole thing bullshit from Roddenberry's old brain.
Even in a econonic system that does not use any form a currency, efficiency is still wanted. Waste is still waste. Engine efficiency was desirable on the Enterprise, yet no economy is in play there. Just because no one is paid doesn't mean things don't get done. It seems that it is our own minds that cannot grasp a system that does not use currency for compensation. Were things still have stockholders, financial loans, and the goal of profit. Yet we are repeatedly told these sorts of things are not done anymore. I don't think Picard is living in some bubble delusion of his own making since he is not the only one to tell us this. If he was the only one, we could say he was living in his own little private Starfleet higher than thou bubble. But he's not the only one. Therefore we just assume he is telling the truth, and that Nog is telling he truth, and that Paris and Janeway are telling the truth.
As for the meditation lamp, I think Janeway was just telling a yarn to Kes for conversation. Kes' response seems to indicate that.
Nog's use of "Humans" in his talk with Jake would be defined on Jake being from Earth and a Federation citizen. To discount his word based on seeing humans that operate outside the Federation using currency would be incorrect, as it would be forcing the usage of the term as based on "all Humans" when we know that not all humans are within the Federation, nor are all humans part of the Federation, nor do all human even know of the Federation. The people from 1937 in the Delta Quadrant had no idea the Federation exists, nor do other isolated colonies that starships run into everyonce in a while that left Earth back in the late 21st and early 22nd centuries. Several worlds are known to not be part of the Federation for one reason or another that have human populations. Some are not even from Earth yet are Human somehow as Kirk's Enterprise kept running into planets full of humans that were not of Earth. So do not use Nog's usage of "Humans" as a proof against his own words on Jake's economics based problem.
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Apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't be bothered to read through 15 pages of communism is bad.
https://medium.com/@RickWebb/the-economics-of-star-trek-29bab88d50
That there is a link to a fantastic blog post about this very subject, and in my opinion works out the details of it pretty expertly in way that fits in with virtually every depiction of economics seen on screen in Trek and Roddenberry's decree that the Federation has no currency.
It's a lengthy read alright and the explaining of how it all works doesn't happen until roughly halfway through, but I think its pretty sound. I couldn't pick any holes apart in it.
Basically, the author posits that the Federation is not communist, but rather an extremely left wing socialist democratic capitalist society. The Federation is not entirely post scarcity - they can provide enough resources to let people live in paradise and sit around on their asses for 150 years if they so wish, but they can't simply replicate a thousand starships when they need too. Nor can they house trillions of people on a single planet - natural resources are obviously still needed, just on a grander scale than individual people. The basic idea is, everyone gets the equivalent energy expenditure for their entire projected life and then some given to them at birth, free of charge - because the cost of food, water, devices, medicine, education and shelter (to a degree) has no meaning in money because the only cost associated is how much energy it uses to make these things - and they have virtually unlimited energy. That doesn't mean you can roll up and say you're gonna live in Buckingham Palace - take the equivalent running costs out of my stipend or bulldoze a row of houses to build your own. Those people and the Federation owns those buildings themselves, thanks to using their own energy usage to offset the construction expenditure or loss of productivity that the Federation would miss from not owning it - but like I said - the Federation has unlimited energy be it from Matter/Antimatter reactions, Fusion reactions, 100% efficient solar energy or whatever, so they have no use for an area the size of a house that would comfortably fit a family with space for a decent garden. Maybe not in a city center where space is a premium, but they could probably find a spot for you eventually, just live in the middle of China for a while and beam to work in New York every day - it's the same difference beaming from downtown to your office as it is from the other side of the planet or orbit.
And after you've hit age 20, lived across the world or Galaxy with your parents, had "free" food and healthcare growing up, and are enrolled in Starfleet Academy in your final year waiting to graduate (again for "free") - your personal energy balance is still vastly greater than you would ever need. You could just drop out now and drink synthohol all day and night on a beach on hawaii or Risa, banging all those Risan women who are trained in the art of lovemaking - all for free - but after a while that is gonna get stale - everything in life gets stale eventually. So you go backpacking on Vulcan. You visit Mount Seleya again after going with your parents when you were five. Its still hot and dusty and the monks are still humming. You hop a transport to Deep Space Nine - the furthest edge you can go and still live for free. You check out Bajor. Some of the girls there are real cute with the nose ridges, but after hanging around you realise - these people want in on the Federation. The Federation you've been living large in all your life. The Federation which to you is just a collection of the same planets with the same people and the same food. But that cute Bajoran girl you've been talking too for an hour? She tells you her parents died when she was a kid. The Occupation killed her entire family. She had to hide amongst their dead bodies so the Cardassians wouldn't kill her. She had to live on drips of water seeping through their corpses for a week when it rained. You go backpacking in the hills of bajor - and you find the ruins of great towns and villages which were levelled when your parents took you to Vulcan for the first time - and then it really hits you - You've been living in paradise, you didn't have to do squat to grow up and be happy. You're bored of synthohol and Risan women - These people didn't have water or families. You realise that Starfleet - the people who drilled into you the importance of warp field dynamics and the history of the galaxy weren't just telling you these things because school is lame - some people out in the galaxy deserve a chance to have what you had. And Starfleet will make that happen when they can.
So you go back to Starfleet academy. You Graduate. You join a ship. Because out there - you really are in a position to help people. Or you go write a holonovel that is the 24th Century equivalent of Schindler's list. Or you become a diplomat to help facilitate Bajor's entry to the Federation. My point is - just because The Federation offers you the ability to laze around all the time - the chances of you spending your *entire life* doing nothing is slim. Especially when you know there are people who are desperate to have what you have. That would drive me to do what I could to help - Starfleet would be the most proactive choice, but that's not a mandate. The Federation is not a dictatorship - its not a communist state - you have a democratic vote and say in things - that's why Starfleet officers weren't arrested for leaving Starfleet and joining the Maquis - they were arrested for committing crimes. Choosing to join Starfleet may offer other perks - maybe you can own a small craft you wouldn't otherwise be able too, say one that is armed. Or purchase land in some specially reserved Territory to build a home (a little bit like Kirk's house in the middle of nowhere). But the real perk would be the good you're trying to do. Maybe that would get lost for someone when they're scanning a gaseous anomaly for the 20th time that month, but I'm sure there's people who are willing to do that because eventually you're the closest ship to a colony in need, and you could be the one handing out supplies to people who need them the most. After all, it costs the Federation nothing to replicate a warm meal - but for someone in need its the difference between life and death.
Like Sisko said, you look out the window on Earth and you see paradise. Out where Starfleet works - you're a long way from paradise. But you try and bring it with you. Because the alternative there is death. From a humanitarian standpoint, doing good should drive you to help others, if not yourself. But hey, in the process from being an academy dropout to Starfleet officer, I guess you did improve yourself. Taking that route, I can totally see how the future works in Trek.
https://medium.com/@RickWebb/the-economics-of-star-trek-29bab88d50
That there is a link to a fantastic blog post about this very subject, and in my opinion works out the details of it pretty expertly in way that fits in with virtually every depiction of economics seen on screen in Trek and Roddenberry's decree that the Federation has no currency.
It's a lengthy read alright and the explaining of how it all works doesn't happen until roughly halfway through, but I think its pretty sound. I couldn't pick any holes apart in it.
Basically, the author posits that the Federation is not communist, but rather an extremely left wing socialist democratic capitalist society. The Federation is not entirely post scarcity - they can provide enough resources to let people live in paradise and sit around on their asses for 150 years if they so wish, but they can't simply replicate a thousand starships when they need too. Nor can they house trillions of people on a single planet - natural resources are obviously still needed, just on a grander scale than individual people. The basic idea is, everyone gets the equivalent energy expenditure for their entire projected life and then some given to them at birth, free of charge - because the cost of food, water, devices, medicine, education and shelter (to a degree) has no meaning in money because the only cost associated is how much energy it uses to make these things - and they have virtually unlimited energy. That doesn't mean you can roll up and say you're gonna live in Buckingham Palace - take the equivalent running costs out of my stipend or bulldoze a row of houses to build your own. Those people and the Federation owns those buildings themselves, thanks to using their own energy usage to offset the construction expenditure or loss of productivity that the Federation would miss from not owning it - but like I said - the Federation has unlimited energy be it from Matter/Antimatter reactions, Fusion reactions, 100% efficient solar energy or whatever, so they have no use for an area the size of a house that would comfortably fit a family with space for a decent garden. Maybe not in a city center where space is a premium, but they could probably find a spot for you eventually, just live in the middle of China for a while and beam to work in New York every day - it's the same difference beaming from downtown to your office as it is from the other side of the planet or orbit.
And after you've hit age 20, lived across the world or Galaxy with your parents, had "free" food and healthcare growing up, and are enrolled in Starfleet Academy in your final year waiting to graduate (again for "free") - your personal energy balance is still vastly greater than you would ever need. You could just drop out now and drink synthohol all day and night on a beach on hawaii or Risa, banging all those Risan women who are trained in the art of lovemaking - all for free - but after a while that is gonna get stale - everything in life gets stale eventually. So you go backpacking on Vulcan. You visit Mount Seleya again after going with your parents when you were five. Its still hot and dusty and the monks are still humming. You hop a transport to Deep Space Nine - the furthest edge you can go and still live for free. You check out Bajor. Some of the girls there are real cute with the nose ridges, but after hanging around you realise - these people want in on the Federation. The Federation you've been living large in all your life. The Federation which to you is just a collection of the same planets with the same people and the same food. But that cute Bajoran girl you've been talking too for an hour? She tells you her parents died when she was a kid. The Occupation killed her entire family. She had to hide amongst their dead bodies so the Cardassians wouldn't kill her. She had to live on drips of water seeping through their corpses for a week when it rained. You go backpacking in the hills of bajor - and you find the ruins of great towns and villages which were levelled when your parents took you to Vulcan for the first time - and then it really hits you - You've been living in paradise, you didn't have to do squat to grow up and be happy. You're bored of synthohol and Risan women - These people didn't have water or families. You realise that Starfleet - the people who drilled into you the importance of warp field dynamics and the history of the galaxy weren't just telling you these things because school is lame - some people out in the galaxy deserve a chance to have what you had. And Starfleet will make that happen when they can.
So you go back to Starfleet academy. You Graduate. You join a ship. Because out there - you really are in a position to help people. Or you go write a holonovel that is the 24th Century equivalent of Schindler's list. Or you become a diplomat to help facilitate Bajor's entry to the Federation. My point is - just because The Federation offers you the ability to laze around all the time - the chances of you spending your *entire life* doing nothing is slim. Especially when you know there are people who are desperate to have what you have. That would drive me to do what I could to help - Starfleet would be the most proactive choice, but that's not a mandate. The Federation is not a dictatorship - its not a communist state - you have a democratic vote and say in things - that's why Starfleet officers weren't arrested for leaving Starfleet and joining the Maquis - they were arrested for committing crimes. Choosing to join Starfleet may offer other perks - maybe you can own a small craft you wouldn't otherwise be able too, say one that is armed. Or purchase land in some specially reserved Territory to build a home (a little bit like Kirk's house in the middle of nowhere). But the real perk would be the good you're trying to do. Maybe that would get lost for someone when they're scanning a gaseous anomaly for the 20th time that month, but I'm sure there's people who are willing to do that because eventually you're the closest ship to a colony in need, and you could be the one handing out supplies to people who need them the most. After all, it costs the Federation nothing to replicate a warm meal - but for someone in need its the difference between life and death.
Like Sisko said, you look out the window on Earth and you see paradise. Out where Starfleet works - you're a long way from paradise. But you try and bring it with you. Because the alternative there is death. From a humanitarian standpoint, doing good should drive you to help others, if not yourself. But hey, in the process from being an academy dropout to Starfleet officer, I guess you did improve yourself. Taking that route, I can totally see how the future works in Trek.
That all makes sense for people that join starfleet or try to become a famous scientist.. but what about sweeping the floors or being a waiter? Jobs that need to be done but are usually filled by people trying to get paid. I believe no-money is what exists in the Trek world and I don't buy the "Picard is delusional" concept, but I have to admit that part of how it works is a mystery.
I like to think robots handle most of it and people just do those jobs as quaint hobbies whenever they feel like it. Be a waiter for an hour a day or something as a hobby.
I like to think robots handle most of it and people just do those jobs as quaint hobbies whenever they feel like it. Be a waiter for an hour a day or something as a hobby.
There's no actual evidence as to whether Trill is a member. Me, I think they must be, if only for the fact that Curzon and Odan were both Federation ambassadors. Logically speaking, how could they be that, if they're not members?
There can be Trill Starfleet officers, such as Torias, Jadzia and Ezri (possibly Curzon as well, as I recall he and Sisko once "served together"), from Trill, even if Trill wasn't a member. But I should think that any Federation ambassador must be from a member world.
As for being joined: That's relatively easy to keep hidden. Odan's secret only came out because of a transporter problem, amirite?
I don't recall ever seeing anyone be a janitor in Trek, and if so - I'm sure a low intensity phaser beam or something of that ilk would clean and sanitize surfaces (if not already self cleaning) in a second.
As for the waiters we see in Ten Forward on the Enterprise - no formal training required and you can live on the flagship of the Federation with a chance to be part of exploring strange new worlds? And all you have to do is serve people for a few hours a day in a relaxed, not too busy bar? I'm sure a not insignificant part of the population wouldn't mind that - especially if it's serving a largely same client base you'd get to know, and a constantly changing view out of the window.
Not delusional necessarily; just not as informed as he thinks he is. When he says people are only doing things to better themselves, he probably believes that but it was ultimately a generalisation based on limited experience.
The vast majority of Earth/Human/Federation characters I can think of who were in the show but who weren't part of Starfleet, all seemed to be characters who were chasing profit/wealth/something. They were not bettering themselves in the way Picard suggested.
Like i suggested in my earlier analogy; do modern conservative millionaires have a good grasp of what the poor experience day to day or is their understanding slightly coloured, biased, generalised, misinformed?
IIRC, Admiral Kirk even does a quick look at the floor as if inspecting their work.
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