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How would a society with no money work?

There's no money in the Federation though ...
Except when there is, which is the majority of the time.

The trouble is that there's a fair amount of lines that explicitly support both positions. For every bit that says there's no money, there's other bits that say there is. (Remember Beverly Crusher's line about 'put it on my account'? ;) ) This is just one more continuity issue - and hardly a very important one, in the grand scheme of things.

The Federation uses money when certain writers want it to, and doesn't use it when the writers don't want it to. That's the only rule here.
 
Agreed, we have the capacity now to automate all kinds of shitty jobs and lower the work week and increase wages
If you replace someone with automation, you don't increase that individual's wages, you end their wages, at least in that particular job.

Better methods of compensation exist than money, which btw didn't originate due to convenience or efficiency which is a common misconception.
Money replaced barter, and is more efficient than barter. And it is in fact more convenient to use money than it is to have to be in possess of whatever the other party in deal wants in exchange for their item.

When Lily Sloane asked how much the USS Enterprise-E cost to build, Picard tells her "The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century
Picard didn't directly answer Lily's question, if the answer was "no cost," then that what Picard should have said. But he didn't.

"The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
This was Picard response to the question of whether he got paid, again he didn't directly answer her question.

When Nog suggests that Jake should bid for a baseball card in an auction, Jake says "I'm Human, I don't have any money." Nog replies "It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency ...
Yes, currency.

Of course Star Trek contradicts itself, as any major franchise that has existed for decades has, but the canon clearly states its an economy that doesn't require currency.
Yes, currency.

Money comes in different forms other than currency, even today I myself rarely use currency, but I do employ money on a daily basis.

On Earth, war, disease, poverty, and famine have been completely abolished ...
Disease does exists on Earth, we see Picard suffering from disease in the last TNG episode.

War is still fought by Humans, they just moved it off world. Humans still fight other Humans (Maquis), but again it's off world. And Earth is occasional attacked.

That all Humans exist (or not) at the same economic level is unclear. Sisko's Creole Kitchen is located in a three story building (plus basement?), and Joseph Sisko's residence is above the ground floor restaurant, that give's Joseph a fairly large living space. For a man living alone pretty nice.

But do other Humans live as well?

They learned to grow and replicate food, bravo. However Carol Marcus, in her Genesis proposal to the Federation, specifically mention a ongoing problem with food supply.

the basic biological needs of every citizen are met without compensation
Problem is there is no mention of this on the show.

Humans therefore no longer strive to acquire wealth, and instead work to better themselves and their society.
Humans, what about the rest of the Federation? As has been pointed out, if Human had no access to money, how are they going to interact with the majority of the community known as the Federation? Are they going to be in the same situation as Jake, where they have to resort to begging to acquire money on those occasions when they do need some?
 
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If you look at a textbook definition of democracy, it doesn't exactly match what existing in the "real world." Does that mean that there a no countries that can accurately be referred to a democracies? Of course not, there are multiple democracies around the world today.

Has there ever been a country that perfectly matches a textbook description of a communist state? No, never. But the old soviet union was in fact a communist state. Just as democracy comes in slightly different forms and favors, so true with communism, for example marxism is one of the forms of communism.

Communism (the way it manifests itself in the real world) is totalitarianism.
Um..no. The textbook definition of democracy is: "A system of government in which power is vested in the people, who rule either directly or through freely elected representatives. Note: Democratic institutions, such as parliaments, may exist in a monarchy." Unless you're contending we don't really have democracy, and that at this point it's just a formality, I can agree with that, but on paper, our representative democratic systems are exactly as defined. So since the definition of "Communism" is a stateless totally democratic society where goods and services are freely available enabling a freely associated group of individuals, of which none of its proponents ever claimed to reach, you cannot call "Communism" anything but this. Since it has never been reached, you cannot say what it "really" is. You can make the argument that "socialism" is this, though I'd say you're wrong, you'd have some ground to stand on this.

But "actually existing socialism" and "actually existing capitalism" in the last 100 years have typically reverted or turned to totalitarianism, and we're seeing it right now (after all, America was founded on slavery and genocide, and has a spying apparatus and prison system that would make Stalin blush), this whole "oppression" game is not very useful in analyzing political systems, in and out of itself.

Marxism is not a form of communism, it's a system of analysis. Saying it's a form of a socio-political framework makes no sense. Marx believed "Communism" would arise from socialism, but socialism and communism predate Marx and Marxism, and Marxism has nothing to do with either, it's an analysis mainly of capitalism. Socialists and "Communists" have justified their politics based on Marxism, so again, you're totally confused on the terms.

The Federation uses money when certain writers want it to, and doesn't use it when the writers don't want it to. That's the only rule here.
That's true, but the canon states there is no money.

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets#Economy

By the founding of the Federation in the 22nd century capitalism was no longer the economic system of Earth, being replaced by the New World Economy. According to Tom Paris, it was around this time that "money went the way of the dinosaur." (VOY: "Dark Frontier")
Under the New World Economy material needs and money no longer existed and humanity had grown out of its infancy. People were no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things, effectively eliminating hunger and want and the need for possessions. The challenge and driving force then were to self-improvement, self-enrichment, and the betterment of all humanity. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, TNG: "The Neutral Zone", "The Price", "Time's Arrow, Part II", Star Trek: First Contact)
So yes it's contradicted itself on that, but as far as the core canon is considered, there's no money and no need for compensation in the Trek future (for the Federation anyway). Trek has contradicted itself on everything though, so if we're going to nitpick on that, we couldn't have a discussion on any aspect of its universe in any coherent fashion :P

If you replace someone with automation, you don't increase that individual's wages, you end their wages, at least in that particular job.
This is a poor understanding of economics. Automation only decreases wages in a capitalist framework which is reliant on jobs within a "private" sector, this is kind of its core contradiction. But in a different framework, it would only increase wages and lower workloads and hours since it increases productivity gains. All we need is a system where productivity gains go to the mass of people instead a small group of property owners. All you have to do is decouple peoples entire incomes from reliance on "private sector" (capitalist) jobs and you have solved the issue, which is an easy thing to do technically but difficult politically, since we live in a capitalist society.

Money replaced barter, and is more efficient than barter. And it is in fact more convenient to use money than it is to have to be in possess of whatever the other party in deal wants in exchange for their item.
That's not how money came about. That's a common tendency, but it's not historically accurate. Here's a simple description of the origin of money:

In order to understand how money works, like most things, it is helpful to understand its development.
Money developed independently in a variety of cultures in a variety of different ways. Despite the fact that the first tendency when thinking about how money would likely have originated is to think of money as way to make trade easier, this is not historically accurate. Money commonly developed for religious and State practices.
Livestock served as one of the earliest forms of currency, which other forms of money evolved out of. Cattle were not merely a form of wealth, but were actually a medium of economic exchange. In fact "capital", "chattel" and "cattle" all have the same linguistic root.
Livestock were also important in religious ceremonies as sacrificial animals in many cultures. This may be why some other early forms of money that came after cattle had religious significance as well. Money was often reserved for important ceremonial purposes, such as contributing to priests or for dowry payments - it was not used in everyday transactions.
Taxation and "banking" also played an important role in the development of money. In Egypt for example, commodities such as grain were stored in large State silos for safekeeping. Peasants would deposit their grain into these silos and be given a receipt.


Taxes were often demanded in the form of grain. In many cases the appropriate amount of receipts would be turned over to the tax collectors instead of the actual grain itself. These receipts were mostly reserved for the payment of taxes or to retrieve the grain, but they became a medium of exchange among individuals as well, though barter still remained the dominant means of exchange.
Money continued to evolve, and its role in societies all around the world continued to change throughout history, becoming increasingly important as economies became more complex.
Despite the variety of forms of money that have existed throughout history, the important thing to understand about money is that money is something that represents value. Money itself is not generally valuable, though in the case of cattle and some other forms of money there is arguably an intrinsic value in the object itself, the main function of money is to represent some other form of value. Historically money has typically represented some real material object of value.
When the Egyptians deposited grain into a State "bank" and received a receipt in return, the value of that receipt was that it entitled the holder to a specified quantity of grain or some other commodity in the storehouse.
This, ultimately, is still the same role that money serves today, however today money is more abstract and represents not only material goods, but also service potential and intellectual property.
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/capitalism_property.htm


There are a variety of cases and situations where barter and other methods of compensation and trade make more sense, and many situations where just giving away stuff for free is. Money has ideological and cultural reasons for its usage, it's not that it's necessarily more efficient all the time.

Picard didn't directly answer Lily's question, if the answer was "no cost," then that what Picard should have said. But he didn't. This was Picard response to the question of whether he got paid, again he didn't directly answer her question.
Uh she asks how much the Enterprise cost to build, and he said money doesn't exist so thus the question doesn't make sense in the 24th century, going on to say acquiring wealth no longer matters to humans. You're stretching to interpret this as "money still exists" when he literally says "money doesn't exist" and official Trek canon says this. Kirk also said this :P It's something Roddenberry demanded, ironically most of writers hated this concept, but I like it, because it's communist :)

Yes, currency.

Money comes in different forms other than currency, even today I myself rarely use currency, but I do employ money on a daily basis.
No, currency is synonymous with money. If you rarely use currency, it's because you're either so incredibly poor, or so incredibly rich off of capital dividends that other people buy everything for you. Both of which I find unlikely, I just think you don't know what "currency" is.

A currency (from Middle English: curraunt, "in circulation", from Latin: currens, -entis) in the most specific use of the word refers to money in any form when in actual use or circulation as a medium of exchange, especially circulating banknotes and coins.[1][2] A more general definition is that a currency is a system of money (monetary units) in common use, especially in a nation.[3] Under this definition, British pounds, U.S. dollars, and European euros are different types of currencies. These various currencies are stores of value, and are traded between nations in foreign exchange markets, which determine the relative values of the different currencies.[4] Currencies in this sense are defined by governments, and each type has limited boundaries of acceptance.


Other definitions of the term "currency" are discussed in their respective synonymous articles banknote, coin, and money. The latter definition, pertaining to the currency systems of nations, is the topic of this article. Currencies can be classified into two monetary systems: fiat money and commodity money, depending on what guarantees the value (the economy at large vs. the government's physical metal reserves). Some currencies are legal tender in certain jurisdictions, which means they cannot be refused as payment for debt. Others are simply traded for their economic value. Digital currency arose with the popularity of computers and the Internet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency

Disease does exists on Earth, we see Picard suffering from disease in the last TNG episode.
The writers clearly meant mass pandemics and outbreaks and mass disease like we see now (which could be largely mitigated even now with our current technology, case in point Ebola), not that every single instance of illness no longer occurs.

War is still fought by Humans, they just moved it off world. Humans still fight other Humans (Maquis), but again it's off world. And Earth is occasional attacked.
Uh, the writers and the articles quoted clearly state humans on Earth no longer fight each other in war. You're stretching very far to find contradictions, which is odd because Star Trek is actually full of them, but one thing that's constant in the franchise is Earth is a near paradise with no war, disease or poverty, and basically in some pseudo-communist Promethean future. It's the whole point why its optimistic views on humanity and the future caught on with people, as opposed to most futuristic science fiction which is typically very grim and dystopian.

That all Humans exist (or not) at the same economic level is unclear. Sisko's Creole Kitchen is located in a three story building (plus basement?), and Joseph Sisko's residence is above the ground floor restaurant, that give's Joseph a fairly large living space. For a man living alone pretty nice.

But do other Humans live as well?
People don't cook to gain money, I mean they do, but people wouldn't stop being gourmet chefs because of a lack of money, this is kind of silly, since it's an art form. When the Trek canon and every series says poverty is eliminated on Earth, you're stretching for some weird reason to say it's not true.

Take Siskos word for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crpUHa9_pJ0 "On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war".

They learned to grow and replicate food, bravo. However Carol Marcus, in her Genesis proposal to the Federation, specifically mention a ongoing problem with food supply.
I honestly don't know why you're trying to attack the Star Trek universe to make a weird political point (it's a fictional universe, it doesn't have any bearing on actual socio-political models, but you seem offended at the idea of it being basically communist). Replicating food from thin air would be of course an Earth-shattering and society changing invention, though we don't need it to feed the world, we have enough food and technology now to feed the planet, it's just capitalism that's causing mass starvation and inefficient food distribution. We don't need replicators and warp drives to eliminate poverty and hunger.

That quote said the "cosmic problems" of population and food supply, not that Earth hadn't eliminated hunger, which the earliest Trek canon establishes. Again, this is supposed to be a utopia :P

Problem is there is no mention of this on the show.
Yeah there is, many times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui6g23ygov8

Humans, what about the rest of the Federation? As has been pointed out, if Human had no access to money, how are they going to interact with the majority of the community known as the Federation? Are they going to be in the same situation as Jake, where they have to resort to begging to acquire money on those occasions when they do need some?
I thought we were talking of human society, but then again the canon states the Federation as a whole is like this.

Jake Sisko was "begging" to buy some luxury present for his dad, not exactly begging for the basic necessities of life.
 
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So since the definition of "Communism" is a stateless totally democratic society where goods and services are freely available enabling a freely associated group of individuals, of which none of its proponents ever claimed to reach, you cannot call "Communism" anything but this. Since it has never been reached, you cannot say what it "really" is.

Fuzzy logic indeed.

Since we have never seen a road built without any imperfections, we cannot know what a road "really" is (cue Twilight Zone theme).

Assessing what something is by alluding to the non-existent perfect version of what it could be is sophistry at its worst. Do people judge capitalism by the wonderful things it theoretically "could" be? No, they judge it by the traits associated with societies that utilise capitalism (despite no "real" capitalist society actually existing anywhere in the world either)

Communism is, as communism does. What it could be is a discussion best left for students who wear polo necks and smoke Gauloises.
 
Again, your statement makes no sense. Communism doesn't claim to be perfect, it claims to be the logical conclusion of an economy that is rationally planned and democratically organized (socialism). I don't buy it, but some "communistic" aspects of an economy I can certainly see happening now if we had a different framework and actually approached things equitably, efficiently and dare I say logically (okay, bad joke). Karl Marx was as interested in a perfect world as Dirty Harry was.

Communism is, as communism does. What it could be is a discussion best left for students who wear polo necks and smoke Gauloises.
Well since we've never had a self-purported communist system, no. Not sure what's so hard to understand about this. This is elementary politics and economics here.

If you can show me one society that purported to be communist, then we'd have something to go on. We have societies that claimed the aim was to achieve it (socialism), but no one has. I don't think it can be achieved, but this doesn't mean "communism" is x,y and z. Sorry, but you'll have to actually prove what you're saying.

Do people judge capitalism by the wonderful things it theoretically "could" be? No,
Uh...yes they do, all the time. They're called "libertarians".

No, they judge it by the traits associated with societies that utilise capitalism (despite no "real" capitalist society actually existing anywhere in the world either)
Ironically and most bizarrely you now make the same argument communists make about "actual existing socialism" : P. Of course we have "real" capitalism, what else would we have, "fake" capitalism?
 
Again, your statement makes no sense. Communism doesn't claim to be perfect, it claims to be the logical conclusion of an economy that is rationally planned and democratically organized (socialism). I don't buy it, but some "communistic" aspects of an economy I can certainly see happening now if we had a different framework and actually approached things equitably, efficiently and dare I say logically (okay, bad joke). Karl Marx was as interested in a perfect world as Dirty Harry was.

Again?

Did I say it claims to be perfect? Missing the point entirely and then choosing to discuss something else is what's called a "strawman".

Well since we've never had a self-purported communist system, no. Not sure what's so hard to understand about this. This is elementary politics and economics here. If you can show me one society that purported to be communist, then we'd have something to go on. We have societies that claimed the aim was to achieve it (socialism), but no one has. I don't think it can be achieved, but this doesn't mean "communism" is x,y and z. Sorry, but you'll have to actually prove what you're saying.

Why would I attempt to show you a society that can only exist as an ideal? That would be dumb. My interest is simply in dismissing the wafer thin idiocy of judging a concept purely by its positive theoretical possibilities alone. And I did that already, thanks.

Uh...yes they do, all the time. They're called "libertarians".

Hmmm, I'm not sure you understand the word judge. How do they judge purely theoretical versions of capitalism. They might theorise or ponder but they can't make a judgement about them since they don't exist.

Ironically and most bizarrely you now make the same argument communists make about "actual existing socialism" : P.

Hmm no I really didn't, and Ironic? In what way is it ironic? Also, which part was bizarre to you? I'm curious.

Of course we have "real" capitalism, what else would we have, "fake" capitalism?

There is no such thing as capitalist society. All societies employ mixed economies. You can call it fake capitalism if you want but I don't think it will catch on.
 
Again?

Did I say it claims to be perfect? Missing the point entirely and then choosing to discuss something else is what's called a "strawman".
But you said: " Since we have never seen a road built without any imperfections, we cannot know what a road "really" is (cue Twilight Zone theme)." implying some argument about "perfection". This is a common strawman against communism in fact, that it's purported to be a perfect system of total harmony, when it's anything but.

Why would I attempt to show you a society that can only exist as an ideal? That would be dumb. My interest is simply in dismissing the wafer thin idiocy of judging a concept purely by its positive theoretical possibilities alone. And I did that already, thanks.
First you said communism in reality is so and so, now it's just a far-flung ideal. Make up your mind. Ironically, I don't believe communism is possible, but this common line of argument against it is really poor and ignorant, and even a bit naive about actually existing economic systems. No one can say communism isn't possible as a fact, because we haven't created a wholly democratic and rational system that it demands as a prerequisite. Again, I doubt it is possible, but your argument is not very good.

Hmmm, I'm not sure you understand the word judge. How do they judge purely theoretical versions of capitalism. They might theorise or ponder but they can't make a judgement about them since they don't exist.
Well libertarians, of the American variety anyway, believe in a "pure" capitalism that we must reach, with "free markets", neither of which have ever existed. Though a lot of libertarians claim it existed in the past, kind of like "primitive communism" :P

Hmm no I really didn't, and Ironic? In what way is it ironic? Also, which part was bizarre to you? I'm curious.
You said we don't have "real capitalism" just like many communists will say the USSR and such were not "real socialists". This is silly. How can we not have "real" capitalism when we have a capitalist system?

There is no such thing as capitalist society. All societies employ mixed economies. You can call it fake capitalism if you want but I don't think it will catch on.
This makes no sense whatsoever. All capitalist economies have been "mixed" from day one, so by your bizarre dichotomy, capitalism never has existed and is some figment in peoples imaginations. Mixed economy is just a lazy way of describing how economies have always been, a mix of "public" and "private" enterprises.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/27838-going-beyond-private-versus-public

Capitalism is not defined by "public" or "private".
 
Is this a real discussion, or an attempt to see if Scotland Yard really is looking in on Trekkies?
 
Is this a real discussion, or an attempt to see if Scotland Yard really is looking in on Trekkies?


Why would you say that?

OK since you did broach the topic why is the West, the so called free world embracing laws and ideas that in past times would have been deemed very draconian?
 
But you said: " Since we have never seen a road built without any imperfections, we cannot know what a road "really" is (cue Twilight Zone theme)." implying some argument about "perfection".

Nope. The argument was about a better, theoretical version of something being the thing that determines its realness.

This is a common strawman against communism in fact, that it's purported to be a perfect system of total harmony, when it's anything but.

That's lovely. I'm thrilled you've put that particular strawman to rest but since it has nothing to do with what we're discussing, I'm gonna move on.

First you said communism in reality is so and so, now it's just a far-flung ideal. Make up your mind.

:rolleyes: No, I really didn't. You're the one saying it has never existed. I'm the one saying assessing it based on not existing is silly.

Ironically, I don't believe communism is possible, but this common line of argument against it is really poor and ignorant, and even a bit naive about actually existing economic systems. No one can say communism isn't possible as a fact, because we haven't created a wholly democratic and rational system that it demands as a prerequisite. Again, I doubt it is possible, but your argument is not very good.

Lol

What common line of argument would that be? The one you made up yourself just now and has nothing to do with anything I've been saying.

This makes no sense whatsoever. All capitalist economies have been "mixed" from day one, so by your bizarre dichotomy, capitalism never has existed and is some figment in peoples imaginations.

What is my bizarre dichotomy? I must have missed that.

Mixed economy is just a lazy way of describing how economies have always been, a mix of "public" and "private" enterprises.

Indeed

So real communism hasn't been achieved but real capitalism has?
 
People don't cook to gain money, I mean they do, but people wouldn't stop being gourmet chefs because of a lack of money, this is kind of silly, since it's an art form.
Joseph Sisko's establishment is repeatedly referred to as a restaurant, you appear to enjoy looking things up in dictionaries, the definition of a restaurant is ...

after all, America was founded on slavery and genocide
Sorry but no, while slavery was present and initially legal in some places, it was never part of what America "was founded on."

The Federation uses money when certain writers want it to, and doesn't use it when the writers don't want it to. That's the only rule here.
That's true, but the canon states there is no money.
While frequently demonstrating that money does exists, in fact the majority of canon is that money exists within the Federation and on Earth.

You should remember that Memory Alpha is just a fan site, it's members write the articles, and the articles include interpretations, assumptions, extrapolations and personal points of view by the person/persons who wrote the articles.

Errors are numerous, in spite of that it's an good place to start any research.

I honestly don't know why you're trying to attack the Star Trek universe to make a weird political point
Hardly an attack, simply pointing out what the show has on display for all to see.

but you seem offended at the idea of it being basically communist
Not offended, I will continue to point out that no such system is on display within the show, what we are seeing isn't what you say is there.

we have enough food and technology now to feed the planet, it's just capitalism that's causing mass starvation and inefficient food distribution.
Really, then how do you account for the fact that the nations that ship the majority of food internationally practice capitalism?

The American people exports vast amounts of food every year, a third of our agricultural acreage is exclusively used to grow food for export, about half of all grain on the international market is grown in America. America possesses a capitalism economic system.

The majority of food and foreign aid that goes to staving peoples comes from capitalist economies.

Starvation has absolutely nothing to do with capitaism, it's caused by joke government's, wars, corruption, shitty education, societal practices, other things too ... but not capitalism.

Again, this is supposed to be a utopia
While I do believe that the Federation is materially comfortable, I really don't see it as being a "utopia."

the basic biological needs of every citizen are met without compensation
Problem is there is no mention of this on the show.
Yeah there is, many times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui6g23ygov8
Where in that video does anyone say that citizens needs are being met without compensation?

Jake Sisko was "begging" to buy some luxury present for his dad, not exactly begging for the basic necessities of life.
No, Jake was begging for money, it was embarrassing.
 
Why would you say that?

OK since you did broach the topic why is the West, the so called free world embracing laws and ideas that in past times would have been deemed very draconian?
Well they did :P Intelligence agencies are built to be paranoid, so they spy on everyone to justify their existence.

I liked it better when this thread was about incentivizing people to rake diarrhea for no money...
Hire coprophiliacs? Or automate the work.

Joseph Sisko's establishment is repeatedly referred to as a restaurant, you appear to enjoy looking things up in dictionaries, the definition of a restaurant is ...
Okay: "an establishment where meals are served to customers." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/restaurant

So no I don't see restaurants and chefs ever going away, unless humans stopped eating.

Sorry but no, while slavery was present and initially legal in some places, it was never part of what America "was founded on."
The "Founding Fathers" would disagree, plus any economic historian worth their salt (I'm a history major). The US was founded on slavery and relied on it. Thus when we ended it, it's when the age of American imperialism truly began. Also we wouldn't exist without the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Native Americans. To deny this is just to be blind to basic history. Read some Howard Zinn if you need a crash course in this stuff.

You should remember that Memory Alpha is just a fan site, it's members write the articles, and the articles include interpretations, assumptions, extrapolations and personal points of view by the person/persons who wrote the articles.

Errors are numerous, in spite of that it's an good place to start any research.
It's sources are entirely canon, unless noted otherwise.

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Canon


While frequently demonstrating that money does exists, in fact the majority of canon is that money exists within the Federation and on Earth.
It's weird stretch to say that when Roddenberry and the characters in the shows and the other writers state money doesn't exist, they say money does.

Ronald D. Moore commented: "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that." (AOL chat, 1997)

I see no more reason to discuss this. Seems like the case is closed, given everything cited. Deny it if you want.

Not offended, I will continue to point out that no such system is on display within the show, what we are seeing isn't what you say is there.
Your statement based on money existing, when the creator of the franchise said otherwise, major characters literally say otherwise, and entire plots are written around this idea and the basic canon states otherwise. Oh well, what else can I say? When communists themselves even acknowledge Trek's pinko universe (unintentional most likely..or was it ;)), then there's something to it.

To me, it will always be a cool Promethean commie take on humanity. At least when it's good. It's like the Smurfs in space.
Really, then how do you account for the fact that the nations that ship the majority of food internationally practice capitalism?

The American people exports vast amounts of food every year, a third of our agricultural acreage is exclusively used to grow food for export, about half of all grain on the international market is grown in America. America possesses a capitalism economic system.

The majority of food and foreign aid that goes to staving peoples comes from capitalist economies.

Starvation has absolutely nothing to do with capitaism, it's caused by joke government's, wars, corruption, shitty education, societal practices, other things too ... but not capitalism.
This is ignorance to the max. The distribution of food is inefficient (Since capitalists control practically all the worlds governments and wars are fought for their benefit, corruption benefits them, I don't see this as a valid argument against this fact. There are no dichtonomy against capitalists and governments in this day and age.):
http://isj.org.uk/the-politics-of-food/

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/07/nathan-tankus-marx-on-ireland-then-and-now.html
classic example

Of course, climate change will increase starvation, which is also being caused by capitalism :P

While I do believe that the Federation is materially comfortable, I really don't see it as being a "utopia."
It's totally pie in the sky utopia, except for some parts of DS9 where they brought nuance in the franchise for the first time.

Where in that video does anyone say that citizens needs are being met without compensation?
Um...it says hunger, need and want of material possessions no longer exist. So yeah, no need for compensation to live.

No, Jake was begging for money, it was embarrassing.
To buy a baseball card, because humans do not have money as he said, not for food or a house. So no.

Discussions abound online as to whether the Federation in the various series is intended as a socialist utopia (What about the Ferengi? Does Chateau Picard mean their is still private ownership of land?), and while the series makes no explicit references to democratic planning or the market, the consensus is that, well, it does appear to be a post-scarcity socialist economy of some description, albeit with a highly hierarchical, even militarist tinge.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/03/leonard-nimroy-spock-obituary-star-trek/ From America's leading socialist magazine, which wrote a fanboy obituary to Leonard Nimoy :P
 
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Joseph Sisko's establishment is repeatedly referred to as a restaurant, you appear to enjoy looking things up in dictionaries, the definition of a restaurant is ...
Okay: "an establishment where meals are served to customers." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/restaurant
Merriam-Webster Dictionary
 A business establishment where meals or refreshments may be purchased

Oxford American Dictionary
A place that sells meals prepared and served on the premises.
 
Cambridge American English Dictionary
place of business where people can choose a meal to be prepared and served to them at a table, and for which they pay, usually after eating

Wikipedia
A restaurant is a business which prepares and serves food and drinks to customers in exchange for money

Purchase, sells, pay, money.

It's weird stretch to say that when Roddenberry and the characters in the shows and the other writers state money doesn't exist, they say money does.
Yet in the TNG pilot, Doctor Crusher charges a purchase to her account.

It was written by Gene Roddenberry and Dorothy Fontana.
 
Crusher's line was probably from Fontana.

As for restaurant, the origin mentions a French word for "Food that restores" which has nothing to do with payment nor even a structure. Just the food. As we know, words change meaning over time. The origin word seems to be 250 years old, while the American meaning is presently different. By the 2370s, over 600 years after the original use of the world, the meaning could be just about anything, though it is still related to food and seemingly a place to restore with said food.
 
As for restaurant, the origin mentions a French word for "Food that restores" which has nothing to do with payment nor even a structure.
I'm not sure what your point is, yes the French word restaurant is derived from the word restaurer. But restaurer never itself meant a establishment that prepared and served food. The earliest restaurants in France were opened in the mid eighteenth century (some debate as to which was the first), and they were from the start commercial establishments that sold their food and drink. The meaning of the term "restaurant" hasn't changed over time.

And prior to the advent of the word restaurant, businesses were preparing and selling food and drink.
 
Simple. In a society that no longer uses currency based economics, they will still use older words with newer meaning.

They will also still likely gather at established places where someone cooks a meal that would restore them. If not because they like the food, but because they like the social aspect, or the atmosphere of the establishment. They could just replicate a plate of food and eat at home, but instead they decide to go to a known location for social activities, or (in a specific case) just because Sisko's reputation has gotten around that his food is rather good compared to the generic verisons of the same food in the replicator computer banks.

These places keep the American loan word based on the French word of "restaurant" for traditional reason rather than invent a new word.
 
Simple. In a society that no longer uses currency based economics, they will still use older words with newer meaning.

Agreed. If there society was able to drop money, but an establishment like a restaurant of today were still to exist, I imagine it would still be called a restaurant. I doubt a new word would be required, or that they would call it a "Soup Kitchen" :lol:.
 
Agreed. If there society was able to drop money, but an establishment like a restaurant of today were still to exist, I imagine it would still be called a restaurant. I doubt a new word would be required, or that they would call it a "Soup Kitchen" :lol:
I'm an atheist yet I still say "bless you" and "God damn it". XD

I'm not sure what your point is, yes the French word restaurant is derived from the word restaurer. But restaurer never itself meant a establishment that prepared and served food. The earliest restaurants in France were opened in the mid eighteenth century (some debate as to which was the first), and they were from the start commercial establishments that sold their food and drink. The meaning of the term "restaurant" hasn't changed over time.

And prior to the advent of the word restaurant, businesses were preparing and selling food and drink.
Restaurants and chefs don't exist because of profit, they are used for profit in our current society though. People have cooked and culinary arts have existed long before money even existed.

Wikipedia
Quote mining is never good. Yes modern day restaurants are largely for profit businesses. But the general definition is simply:"A place where meals are served to the public." A restaurant that served food for free wouldn't stop being a restaurant.
It was written by Gene Roddenberry and Dorothy Fontana.
If you won't take Roddenberry at his word, then oh well, what else can I say?
 
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