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How will you react if the Klingon War Arc isn't wrapped up?

I think you underestimate the dialogue that is going on all around the world on that very distinction, and has been for some time. There are many people of faith and many interested in the topic who make a clear distinction between faith (or indeed spirituality) and organised religion or dogma...
Perhaps I do. Certainly it's true that longitudinal surveys show increasing percentages of the population in Western countries (even the U.S.) self-identifying with some sort of nonspecific "spirituality" rather than with any specific religion.

Identifying just what that implies and what they actually believe, though, is a tricky thing. It often seems like kind of a catch-all category — people expressing some equivalent of "I know there's something more out there, or at least I can't give up the hope that there is, but I just don't know what and neither do any organized religions."

Certainly my faith is of great use to me in my daily life... what faith gives me is a framework of morality, a set of principles and values which guide my daily life and decisions, and allow me to process my experiences in a way that rationality alone cannot. ... Nor can you dismiss the mental wellbeing of a human mind as something unimportant or not useful, and faith provides a route to wellness and contentment for many.
I certainly don't dismiss mental and emotional wellbeing as unimportant or not useful. I just place a high value on achieving it through methods grounded in truth, to the best of our ability to determine it... or at least, not grounded on the shifting sands of fuzzy supernatural thinking. Moral philosophy, as I and others have commented, can and does offer a foundation for a life of principles and values (and, I submit, one's principles and values should be logically consistent), without the need for any supernatural or "spiritual" aspects.

That said, it doesn't necessarily preclude such aspects either. But that leaves the question, as does your entire post... in the absence of any specific religious doctrine or schema, just what is this faith in? For you, personally, what does it involve? What does it add that philosophy alone cannot provide?

Nor does one need science for principles and morality. Actually one doesn't need science.
Well, technically you're correct. Through 99% of human existence, our species got by without science. Of course, life tended to be nasty, poor, brutish, and short, and we didn't understand the vast majority of what was going on in the world around us, but technically we didn't go extinct. So that was all hunky-dory, right?
 
Well, technically you're correct. Through 99% of human existence, our species got by without science. Of course, life tended to be nasty, poor, brutish, and short, and we didn't understand the vast majority of what was going on in the world around us, but technically we didn't go extinct. So that was all hunky-dory, right?
I suspect if we go extinct it will be an act of (read this next word as a saying if you prefer) 'God' or it will be an act of science. Boom.
 
The Gaslighting bit was not the right thing to say, I apologise unreservedly.


Nope. People can have faith in some things and not others, particularly where the bible is concerned.

The above is not an answer to “ethics are not faith”.


There is Faith involved. As i explained people still had faith in the teachings of christ/bible.[/QUOTE]

Teachings on behavior are not the same as supernatural feats of magic. You can say they are the same but they will never be. I can agree that rich people suck without believe a man turned water into wine. By your metric I have faith in Jesus. Are you for real?
 
The above is not an answer to “ethics are not faith”.


There is Faith involved. As i explained people still had faith in the teachings of christ/bible.

Teachings on behavior are not the same as supernatural feats of magic. You can say they are the same but they will never be. I can agree that rich people suck without believe a man turned water into wine. By your metric I have faith in Jesus. Are you for real?[/QUOTE]

Can you point out where I have said that they are the same? Please point out to me where I have written the words 'Ethics and belief in supernatural phenomena are the same'. What I'm saying is that a person can have faith that Jesus the person existed, but still think that the stories of his feats are metaphorical. There is still some element of faith involved in the belief that Jesus was even real without evidence from other historical sources. Religious belief can be multilayered, some people choose to believe that the bible is a literal document word for word, others don't but still consider themselves religious. It doesn't have to be binary, and clearly for a lot of people it isn't, that is the sole argument i am trying to make.
 
Yeah, sorry about my part in that guys, seems we got carried away!

I think it was mostly my fault. I was the dummy that mentioned the next season would be about Science vs. faith (the show runners words, not mine) which lead to people being like 'why does it have to be vs.' which then lead other people to be like 'because religion is the exact opposite of science' which lead to you and me being like 'guys, it can be binary' and then it went down hill from there.
 
Can you point out where I have said that they are the same? Please point out to me where I have written the words 'Ethics and belief in supernatural phenomena are the same'. What I'm saying is that a person can have faith that Jesus the person existed, but still think that the stories of his feats are metaphorical.

You said it in the very message I was responding to. And, no, it doesn't take faith to think Jesus was a historical figure. There are some Roman scholars that document him, though way after the fact. Many secular scholars accept he existed. That's not faith, that's mainstream historical debate. Again, saying a normal human once said stuff and a son of god rose from the dead are two different things.
 
You said it in the very message I was responding to. And, no, it doesn't take faith to think Jesus was a historical figure. There are some Roman scholars that document him, though way after the fact. Many secular scholars accept he existed. That's not faith, that's mainstream historical debate. Again, saying a normal human once said stuff and a son of god rose from the dead are two different things.

No I didn't say that at all. I've fully acknowledged that they are two separate things. My whole point that i have been arguing for consistently is that people do not have to take every element of the bible literally to be religious and of faith nor do you have to deny all aspects of faith to accept science. It's up to the individual to decide for themselves how they will make religion and science work together in their own lives. It isn't totally binary and it isn't totally wrong for someone to do that just because it doesn't match your worldview.
 
No I didn't say that at all. I've fully acknowledged that they are two separate things. My whole point that i have been arguing for consistently is that people do not have to take every element of the bible literally to be religious and of faith nor do you have to deny all aspects of faith to accept science.

And so far you haven't made your point at all. You're consistently comparing apples and oranges. You're misrepresenting the beliefs of scientists you cite as examples. You're redefining what faith means to suit your needs. You're moving goal posts with each iteration. Nothing here has made the point that faith and science are compatible or anything other than opposites. You must dump aspects of one in order to accept aspects of the other. No irrelevant discussion about the rights of the individual or the rightness or wrongness of it all is going to change that.
 
And so far you haven't made your point at all. You're consistently comparing apples and oranges. You're misrepresenting the beliefs of scientists you cite as examples. You're redefining what faith means to suit your needs. You're moving goal posts with each iteration. Nothing here has made the point that faith and science are compatible or anything other than opposites. You must dump aspects of one in order to accept aspects of the other. No irrelevant discussion about the rights of the individual or the rightness or wrongness of it all is going to change that.

I think I've made my point repeatedly, if you choose not to see it that way I cannot help that.
 
Yeah, there's definitely been some thread drift here. But I wouldn't say it went "downhill"... it's been really interesting! (And a harbinger of what a minefield the showrunners are apparently planning to walk into next season.)

As for the Klingon war... here's a thought. Okay, apparently it "wrapped up" in the finale. But what does that mean? The Klingons called back their fleet from Earth and ceased further hostilities, yes (implausible as that may be). But did they give back the territory they'd taken (20% of Federation space, including space very close to the founding worlds!), or are they going to hold on to it and try to occupy it? Are there actual terms of a peace agreement, or was there just a ceasefire? These things matter. (Or they would, if the writers cared about the details.)
 
Yeah, there's definitely been some thread drift here. But I wouldn't say it went "downhill"... it's been really interesting! (And a harbinger of what a minefield the showrunners are apparently planning to walk into next season.)

As for the Klingon war... here's a thought. Okay, apparently it "wrapped up" in the finale. But what does that mean? The Klingons called back their fleet from Earth and ceased further hostilities, yes (implausible as that may be). But did they give back the territory they'd taken (20% of Federation space, including space very close to the founding worlds!), or are they going to hold on to it and try to occupy it? Are there actual terms of a peace agreement, or was there just a ceasefire? These things matter. (Or they would, if the writers cared about the details.)

I mentioned in another thread that I'd felt for a while that the writers were not really invested in the war arc. From what I've read on other forums, like reddit (not that i claim it to be a reliable source), the war was really Bryan Fuller's baby and that Kurtzman, Harberts and Berg were not really into it. Anyway fuller got the sack and Harberts and Berg got saddled with a story arc they were not really committed to. It kinda shows, considering how they just seem to completely rush through it. Also if i compare the Klingon war arc to the Dominion war arc it's clear that writing team didn't really know how to write a war.

The finale felt like the writers were trying to clean the slate as quickly as possible whilst also setting up the pieces for the direction they wanted to take the show in. It really felt to me that the finale was basically just a way to set up Georgiou as a rogue element to recur when needed, to set the Discovery on a course to actually discover things and for Burnham to move on from the mutiny albatross that was hanging around her neck. And i really liked these elements of the finale as it allowed the season to end on a hopeful note. But it would have been good to get some proper closure to the war like a mention of the Klingons withdrawing and relief efforts for the affected territories instead of the Klingons just saying 'ok bye, see you in ten years y'all!'

Having said that Kurtzman did say we would see the Klingons in season 2 at some point so my guess is we'll get answers to our questions at some point hopefully sooner, rather than later.
 
I think I've made my point repeatedly, if you choose not to see it that way I cannot help that.

You really have, sometimes though you encounter someone whose idea of debating boils down to repeating the same thing no matter how baseless or erroneous, no matter how blatantly their ignorance is bleeding out of every post for everyone to see, regardless of how much better informed other people trying to help them are.

"Victory" then comes down to who can keep repeating some variation of the same comment the longest and win by attrition, regardless of whether their opinion has any basis in reality or is simply a question of insisting the world view they hold must be right because it's in their head.

You're absolutely right and there's no real way of getting around the irony that this guy is literally illustrating the very problem under discussion.
 
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