While I actually quite like the overall look of the USS Kelvin, I've heard that some people are a bit divided as to whether it's an accurate portrayal of a pre-TOS era Starfleet vessel. I know it's slightly larger than the original USS Enterprise, and has more shuttles and crew aboard, but apart from that I haven't noticed anything particularly wrong with it. Anyone like to comment?
How well does the USS Kelvin fit into the Starfleet lineage?
- Thread starter EJA
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I loved it.
The lineage we're already familiar with doesn't matter because this is an alternate realty, an alternate universe if you will. So the Kelvin doesn't have to fit into the familiar lineage. The nuStarfleet has it's own lineage as well evidenced by the heavily industrialized look of Starfleet tech and, of course, the Uglyprise.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
The Kelvin fits perfectly well into the Starfleet lineage of the Abramsverse. However, because of certain design elements of the Kelvin, I don't see it as a pre-TOS era ship. It doesn't fit into the Starfleet lineage of the original continuity.
Now, bear in mind that this is my personal opinion. So I expect plenty of insults and smart-ass remarks from the movie's fans. Therefore, to the STXI fans, pleast don't proceed under the false impression that your pot shots will in any way hurt my feelings.
First, there's the overall design. I like the design of the Kelvin. It is actually not a bad looking ship. But it doesn't look like a predecessor to the TOS Enterprise. And given that the Kelvin is supposed to be from the original TOS universe, it should at least bear some resemblance to the original universe's design style. This dissimilarity to anything that came before proves, at least to me, that STXI takes place in an alternate universe with its own continuity completely separate from the original that we know. Then there's the size. According to Captain Pike, the Kelvin had 800+ crew. Oooookay. That's a LOT of crew. That means that the Kelvin was at least TWICE as large as the TOS Enterprise, the flagship of Starfleet, of 30 years later. That makes no logical sense. For example, the NX-01 Enterprise from 2151 held 80+ crew. It was a small ship. 100 years later, the Enterprise under Pike held 200+ crew, later enlarged to 400+ under Kirk's command, yet the exterior size remained the same (presumably, crew quarters were double-bunked). That is logical progression of size and crew compliment as time and tecnology progresses. To add an absolutely enormous, 800+ crew starship into the lineage 70 years after NX-01 and 30 years prior to the NCC-1701 makes absolutely no sense. Think about it, the Kelvin, according to the dialogue and sheer number of shuttles aboard, was at least ten times as large as the NX-01. It was also about two times as large as the TOS Enterprise. What would be the logic in increasing the size of starships from little NX-01 size to gargantuan Kelvin size and then reducing back down to NCC-1701 size ships? And then later increasing again to Galaxy class sizes by the 24th century? It makes no sense. To me, it shows the writers' lack of respect for TOS in that they simply did not care if the Kelvin didn't fit into the original universe. Then there's the hull plating design. On the Nx-01, the hull plating was very symetrical and clean looking, yet it looked older than the NCC-1701. The Kelvin's hull plating seems randomly slapped together. There's no symetry to it. That's purely an aesthetic view, but it looks out of place to me.
Now, I know some are going to say something to the effect of "who cares? It's an alternate reality.", or "the Kelvin was a colinization or survey ship, it needed to be huge with a crapload of shuttles and lots of passengers." To that I must reply, there was no dialogue or action that gave any impression that the Kelvin was a colonization or survey ship. According to what was seen and heard in the movie, the Kelvin was just another Abramsverse version of a Starfleet ship. There will also be some who invariably will say, "we don't know what Starships looked like in the 2230's." That is true, but we can extrapolate using the NX-01 and the NCC-1701 as bookends and filling in the gaps. Logically, the Kelvin doesn't fit between the NX-class and Constitution class in the original universe. One can rationalize all day long that it's a movie and it doesn't matter. But one can not ignore the on screen evidence as compared to what we know of the origial universe.
Now, bear in mind that this is my personal opinion. So I expect plenty of insults and smart-ass remarks from the movie's fans. Therefore, to the STXI fans, pleast don't proceed under the false impression that your pot shots will in any way hurt my feelings.
First, there's the overall design. I like the design of the Kelvin. It is actually not a bad looking ship. But it doesn't look like a predecessor to the TOS Enterprise. And given that the Kelvin is supposed to be from the original TOS universe, it should at least bear some resemblance to the original universe's design style. This dissimilarity to anything that came before proves, at least to me, that STXI takes place in an alternate universe with its own continuity completely separate from the original that we know. Then there's the size. According to Captain Pike, the Kelvin had 800+ crew. Oooookay. That's a LOT of crew. That means that the Kelvin was at least TWICE as large as the TOS Enterprise, the flagship of Starfleet, of 30 years later. That makes no logical sense. For example, the NX-01 Enterprise from 2151 held 80+ crew. It was a small ship. 100 years later, the Enterprise under Pike held 200+ crew, later enlarged to 400+ under Kirk's command, yet the exterior size remained the same (presumably, crew quarters were double-bunked). That is logical progression of size and crew compliment as time and tecnology progresses. To add an absolutely enormous, 800+ crew starship into the lineage 70 years after NX-01 and 30 years prior to the NCC-1701 makes absolutely no sense. Think about it, the Kelvin, according to the dialogue and sheer number of shuttles aboard, was at least ten times as large as the NX-01. It was also about two times as large as the TOS Enterprise. What would be the logic in increasing the size of starships from little NX-01 size to gargantuan Kelvin size and then reducing back down to NCC-1701 size ships? And then later increasing again to Galaxy class sizes by the 24th century? It makes no sense. To me, it shows the writers' lack of respect for TOS in that they simply did not care if the Kelvin didn't fit into the original universe. Then there's the hull plating design. On the Nx-01, the hull plating was very symetrical and clean looking, yet it looked older than the NCC-1701. The Kelvin's hull plating seems randomly slapped together. There's no symetry to it. That's purely an aesthetic view, but it looks out of place to me.
Now, I know some are going to say something to the effect of "who cares? It's an alternate reality.", or "the Kelvin was a colinization or survey ship, it needed to be huge with a crapload of shuttles and lots of passengers." To that I must reply, there was no dialogue or action that gave any impression that the Kelvin was a colonization or survey ship. According to what was seen and heard in the movie, the Kelvin was just another Abramsverse version of a Starfleet ship. There will also be some who invariably will say, "we don't know what Starships looked like in the 2230's." That is true, but we can extrapolate using the NX-01 and the NCC-1701 as bookends and filling in the gaps. Logically, the Kelvin doesn't fit between the NX-class and Constitution class in the original universe. One can rationalize all day long that it's a movie and it doesn't matter. But one can not ignore the on screen evidence as compared to what we know of the origial universe.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
So, the size of any type of vessel should always increase?
The master of rebuttal. The criticism regarding the Kelvin is well founded. It's yet another thing lacking credibility in a film replete with nonsense.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
Within the established Star Trek universe, as seen on screen from 1966 to pre-STXI, yes. Especially with larger flagship-type vessels. Of course there will always be the exceptions such as the Akira and Oberth. Battleships and heavy cruisers have always increased in size over time in the Star Trek universe. This has been established on screen.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
Ah, ship-sizes always increase unless they don't.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
Yeah, like FTL-drives, matter/energy-teleportation, artificial gravity...
That criticism is not at all 'well founded' since there are always ships and vessels available in a wide range of sizes even in real life today; small scout ships to large aircraft carriers.
So you have proof that the Constitution was the largest vessel at the time?
I-Am-Zim
Captain
I cited smaller ships. Akira, Oberth, Constellation, etc. Heavy cruisers such as Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador, and Galaxy classes have always gotten progressively larger in the Star Trek universe as time and tech progressed.
See above.
Do you have proof that is wasn't?
The Constitution class was the flagship of the Federation. Kirk mentioned on several occasions that it was a very significant vessel in that there were only 12 like her in the fleet. This gives the logical impression that the Constitution class is an impressive vessel. Not that it is the only class in the fleet, but that it is quite probably the largest, most powerful, most advanced ship class in the fleet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Star_Fleet_Technical_Manual
I have one of the original 1973 copies, and I believe Rodenberry considered this "canon". "Flagship" status isn't necessarily a status denoting "most powerful ship", it is a political designation.
Further, in this book, there is shown a "dreadnought" design with three warp nacelles and dimensions bigger than the Constitution class CRUISER (not usually the biggest ship in a fleet, most often workhorse).
"12 like it in the fleet" only means that the design was relatively new and 12 of it's kind had been built up to that point. Doesn't mean the production line had ended.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
Your point? I'm talking about what was seen on screen, thus considered canon. Not what is in a book that is canonically questionable. The Constitution was, unfortunately, the only Starfleet ship we saw in TOS. Later, we saw several more throughout the movies and TNG-era. My point is that as far as what was seen on screen from 1966 to pre-STXI, cruisers such as the various ships named Enterprise have gotten progressively larger as time and technology progresses. Therefore, it is logical to infer that the sheer size of the Kelvin makes it improbable at best that it would have logically fit into the existing Star Trek universe.
Edit: Besides, as much as I love Franz Joseph's designs, they have been called into question on many occasions over the years and are for the most part no longer considered accruate references.
Assuming that the type of ship the Kelvin is isn't supposted to be bigger then a cruiser
True. I have two editions of FJ's book: an original hardcover and a more recent paperback version. I look at it mostly out of nostalgia, remembering how excited I was when I first got it. But as being a reference consistent with what we saw onscreen? Mostly not.
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