How we deal with death

[Trent Roman]

Are you really having trouble understanding the value of an informed opinion over an uninformed one?

Not at all. My most recent intervention in this discussion was to the effect that Lynx was informed enough to know that he wouldn't like Before Dishonor. In fact, from my interactions with Lynx over the last few years, I feel confident in saying with as close to certainty as I get that Lynx wouldn't like the book. Could his opinion have more information behind it? Yes. Does it need to for him to participate in this discussion and express his displeasure? No. Would it be better? ...honestly, I don't think so. I wouldn't recommend Before Dishonor to anyone, and I certainly wouldn't put anybody through that shit-fest just so he or she can acquire greater 'credibility' before a handful of people on the Internet. Too small a gain.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Saito S]

Are you really having trouble understanding the value of an informed opinion over an uninformed one?

Not at all. My most recent intervention in this discussion was to the effect that Lynx was informed enough to know that he wouldn't like Before Dishonor. In fact, from my interactions with Lynx over the last few years, I feel confident in saying with as close to certainty as I get that Lynx wouldn't like the book. Could his opinion have more information behind it? Yes. Does it need to for him to participate in this discussion and express his displeasure? No. Would it be better? ...honestly, I don't think so. I wouldn't recommend Before Dishonor to anyone, and I certainly wouldn't put anybody through that shit-fest just so he or she can acquire greater 'credibility' before a handful of people on the Internet. Too small a gain.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

But this isn't about Lynx liking or disliking the book for himself. My part in the discussion isn't about that, anyway. He's free to like or dislike any book he pleases, to dismiss any book as being uninteresting to him based on the subject matter, and therefore not worth his time to read it. The discussion has been... well, it's been doing all kinds of other things, things that I have already spelled out in my other posts and don't feel like reiterating here. The point is, they go well beyond simply saying "This book ain't for me." I am still perfectly willing to accept that Lynx isn't actually intentionally trying to represent his opinions as facts, but that IS how his posts have come across in this discussion.

And beyond all of that, there is a debate about the ramifications of main character death and the relative gloominess of Trek storytelling which I for one have been finding an interesting subject of discussion over the last several pages.

One last thing, to you specifically Trent: Shit-fest? Seriously? Man... I really enjoyed BD, but I guess you really hated it, huh?

 

[Trent Roman]

I'd like to say that the best thing about Before Dishonor is that it ended... except it didn't. The idiocies of BD have gone on to pollute the rest of the line; Janeway's fate being the most notable example, but, for another, some of the weakest points of Greater Than The Sum was when it tried to explain away some of the wacky shit that went down in BD, which, Christopher's valiant efforts and not insignificant skills at sophistry notwithstanding, it ultimately failed to do because, really, there is simply no justifying BD. Having to deal with the fallout of that book brought down what otherwise could--probably should--have been a very good novel.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Saito S]

I'd like to say that the best thing about Before Dishonor is that it ended... except it didn't. The idiocies of BD have gone on to pollute the rest of the line; Janeway's fate being the most notable example, but, for another, some of the weakest points of Greater Than The Sum was when it tried to explain away some of the wacky shit that went down in BD, which, Christopher's valiant efforts and not insignificant skills at sophistry notwithstanding, it ultimately failed to do because, really, there is simply no justifying BD. Having to deal with the fallout of that book brought down what otherwise could--probably should--have been a very good novel.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Ouch!

Well, I didn't think it was necessarily fantastic, but still very good. Not as good as some of the other Trek books I've been reading recently (and before my recent headlong dive into the TNG and DS9 relaunches, I hadn't read hardly any Trek books), but I still liked it. And while I had issues with certain parts (and I will say that Peter David is not my favorite Trek novel writer so far... not to knock him, but his style just doesn't do it for me as much as some of the others), the sequence leading up to and including Janeway's death was not one of them. I thought it was written well, and it was cool that she kinda went down fighting, providing Seven the help she needed to destroy the Borg ship before the end (rather than simply remaining fully under Borg influence up until the last moment and simply dying by virtue of being on the ship when it was destroyed). I guess our respective viewpoints on this book show as well as anything ever could how all of this really does boil down to a matter of opinion.

Oh, and I agree about Greater Than the Sum, as far as the quality of that book on it's own (though I disagree that it was brought down by BD, but that's no doubt obvious given my opinion of BD). Fantastic novel. I cannot heap enough praise at Christopher's feet for that one. I burned through it quickly, cause I was constantly wanting to see what happened next. And Trys is an awesome character.

 

[Thrawn]

Before Dishonor read like a New Frontier novel. If he'd pulled any of that "wacky shit" in a NF novel, no one would've so much as blinked, and honestly, it's not like most of his standalone TNG novels were much less wacky either. The problem is that PAD has always had his own unique spin on the Trek universe, and lack of editorial communication (he apparently wasn't aware of anything that happened in Q&A, for instance, and several details of the recurring characters were wrong, so he had to not have gotten that info as well) resulted in him not being pushed to make his version consistent with the rest.

Really, I don't think it's his fault; I think it's hard, editing overarching or ongoing series, and Clark hadn't tried to do it before, and just didn't do it very well. Ordover, for the record, wasn't really good at it either; if you read Invasion or New Earth or Double Helix a lot of the details don't tie together well at all, and all of the ongoing narratives he commissioned were single-author projects with the exception of A Time To..., within which all the pairs except for the last three books are pretty self-contained. The multi-author, arc-based ongoing series thing is something Palmieri emphasized. The TNG relaunch was the first one of those of any importance that he hadn't supervised, and it showed.

I just hope Clark has that all straightened out; consistency between novels is HER job, and she obviously bungled it here. Whether or not you like the books in question (and, with the exception of Resistance, I do!), I think it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.

 

[LightningStorm]

Before Dishonor read like a New Frontier novel. If he'd pulled any of that "wacky shit" in a NF novel, no one would've so much as blinked,

I would have. Which is why I don't read that series, what works in New Frontier doesn't necessarily work in TNG. And attempting to force it to is a very bad idea IMO. Not to mention had I wanted to read 'wacky NF style shit' then I'd have picked up a NF book, not a TNG one.

Could you imagine what would have happened if that 'wacky shit' had occurred in a DS9 novel? A series where people generally consider it darker and more serious? I think a great many more people would have cried foul at that.

Really, I don't think it's his fault; ...

I just hope Clark has that all straightened out; consistency between novels is HER job, and she obviously bungled it here. Whether or not you like the books in question (and, with the exception of Resistance, I do!), I think it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.

I disagree. While I don't think it was all his fault, as you say Clark has some share of the blame here. I think PAD as the author of a book he knows is apart of a series should have at least asked the questions necessary to make his book the best book he could. It's his book afterall and therefore his responsibility to make it fit just as much as the editor's. In nearly every career one has it is the person directly responsible for the end product that takes full blame (or praise) for the end result. Claiming "it's not my fault" is a cop out and an attempt to not accept personal responsibility.

And (I said this way back when the book first came out too), given what I know (from this board) PAD seems to be friends with KRAD or at the very least they know each other's email addresses, I have to wonder why exactly PAD didn't drop him a line and say "Hey, since you created a couple of these characters and I am tasked with writing for them, could you give me some info on what you plan to establish in Q&A about them? Thanks!"

 

[Defcon]

And (I said this way back when the book first came out too), given what I know (from this board) PAD seems to be friends with KRAD or at the very least they know each other's email addresses, I have to wonder why exactly PAD didn't drop him a line and say "Hey, since you created a couple of these characters and I am tasked with writing for them, could you give me some info on what you plan to establish in Q&A about them? Thanks!"

He got paid to write a novel, not to co-edit the series. And he delivered a (very good) novel and by that fulfilled his obligations.

I think he (rightfully) assumed that his editor would demand changes if something wasn't fitting the series' continuity. Since she obviously didn't do that IMO the full blame for those inconsistencies has to go in her direction.

 

[LightningStorm]

He got paid to write a novel, not to co-edit the series. And he delivered a (very good) novel and by that fulfilled his obligations.

My point, is that while he may have met his obligations, did he do so in a manner that produced the best results possible (subjective clearly, but if we're attempting to place blame for something we agree (do we agree?) is lacking then that lack cannot be fully placed on one person when there were TWO who have a hand in it).

At my job I can "merely meet expectations" or I can care enough to want to make sure that the end product is also a good one. If I'm writing a book that I know is apart of a series and am given no information about that series or the characters that I need to write that I didn't invent, why is it OK to NOT ask the questions necessary to do them well? Even if he didn't ask KRAD directly, why weren't these questions being posed to Margaret?

 

[JoeZhang]

He got paid to write a novel, not to co-edit the series. And he delivered a (very good) novel and by that fulfilled his obligations.

My point, is that while he may have met his obligations, did he do so in a manner that produced the best results possible (subjective clearly, but if we're attempting to place blame for something we agree (do we agree?) is lacking then that lack cannot be fully placed on one person when there were TWO who have a hand in it).

At my job I can "merely meet expectations" or I can care enough to want to make sure that the end product is also a good one. If I'm writing a book that I know is apart of a series and am given no information about that series or the characters that I need to write that I didn't invent, why is it OK to NOT ask the questions necessary to do them well? Even if he didn't ask KRAD directly, why weren't these questions being posed to Margaret?

After a chance conversation with someone who's involved with Star Trek tie-in fiction last weekend (turns out they are a friend of a good friend of mine) and finding out the sort of money involved, I'm amazed the books are as good as they are.

 

[DimesDan]

After a chance conversation with someone who's involved with Star Trek tie-in fiction last weekend (turns out they are a friend of a good friend of mine) and finding out the sort of money involved, I'm amazed the books are as good as they are.

Not a lot then? But then again, several writers on here have said that writing Trek full time ain't gonna pay the bills so it's not really a massive surprise they arn't raking in cash like Rowling or Prachett etc etc

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ We're not even earning cash like whoever cleans Rowling's or Prachett's toilet. That's just a reality of this particular business. What there is certainly is appreciated, but it's not my main motivation when it comes to writing Trek. I wouldn't be doing it if I wasn't already a hardcore fan.

 

[ClayinCA]

Well, as I've said before (when various people have accused the Trek book writers of not caring about the characters they wrote about), nobody's doing this for the money. Not KRAD, who's never written a Trek book I've disliked, and not John Vornholt, who's never written one I didn't.

Honestly, count me in with those who can't believe this discussion is still going on. I'm not casting aspersions against either side, though heaven knows I've disagreed with Lynx very publicly on this issue many times before. I'm just saying that I think we've all been round and round (and round and round again) about this so many times that I don't know what else can be achieved by continuing to talk about it: I mean, is anybody really going to convince anybody else??

Although...I guess it is good to continually get exposed to new points of view. I've been enjoying Saito S's posts a lot, and that's not just 'cause I agree with him/her in most of the things s/he says - it's more that his/her (okay, that's getting to be annoying, even to me) arguments/points are made in a sensible, levelheaded manner, and it's good to hear from someone who hasn't been through this a couple of thousand times already (no offense to Thrawn, Therin, Trent Roman, etc. - you guys know I love ya!)....

For the record, I've never been much of a Voyager fan in general; I think it was a fantastic concept for a Trek show, executed appallingly, and while I liked many of the characters (including Kes, just so you know, Lynx), I never liked Janeway very much. This was partially because I never thought she was written terribly well and partially because--I freely admit this--I've never cared for Kate Mulgrew. But I try to be objective about her death, because she is a captain and an important character in the Trek universe.

Here's what I've got: I think it's a good idea, just like I think Voyager itself was a good idea. Star Trek is strong enough to survive the death of anybody, whether it's Kirk, Spock, Tasha, Data, Janeway, or even Picard, Riker, or somebody else who hasn't died yet. There are amazing stories to be told about the death of a loved one, and as a wise man once said, how we deal with death is as important as how we deal with life. To not examine death is to not consider life, and the opportunity to explore the ramifications of the death of a beloved character is a good opportunity to take, especially if that character wasn't going to play an active part in the storyline any more anyway, as I believe Margaret has said about Admiral Janeway.

The question is, will it be a good idea well done (like Spock's death, even forgetting for the moment that he came back) or badly done, like, say, Kirk's? Well, time will tell, frankly, but the whole thing has intrigued me enough to buy a copy of Full Circle to see what it's like, and where they go with it. It might be good, and it might not. There are, after all, always possibilities (and I think that's it for my Wrath of Khan-quoting...er...quota).

But I'm not going to argue about it any more. I don't agree with Lynx, at all, but he and I have argued already and neither of us has convinced the other (and frankly, that's okay). I do look forward to a discussion about how this death will be dealt with in Trek fiction, which I think will be exciting to talk about without going into whether it was a good idea or a bad idea or whether things were "unnecessary" or "annihilation" or whatever, and I think that once Full Circle has sort of trickled out to bookstores more widely than it now seems to be, and more people have read it, that will be possible.

Sorry to go on like this, and again, I don't mean to be difficult - and I certainly am not discounting Lynx's or anybody else's right to an opinion - I just wonder whether there's any point to this particular argument any more?

 

[LightningStorm]

After a chance conversation with someone who's involved with Star Trek tie-in fiction last weekend (turns out they are a friend of a good friend of mine) and finding out the sort of money involved, I'm amazed the books are as good as they are.

How much one makes for any given task is utterly irrelevant to what I'm talking about. If I'm doing volunteer work and not making anything at all I'm going to do my best at it, same as if I made $100 million for it. The only time I'm not going to put my best foot forward for something I'm doing is if I'm being forced to do it and I don't really want to. I don't doubt PAD takes pride in his writing, what I have to wonder though, is how if you are taking pride in your writing you allow something like this to happen? I fully grant that there could be other circumstances that prevented these things from coming together that were outside of both his and Margaret's control, however back when the book came out he apparently blogged about it when people asked about this and essentially gave the 'it's not my fault' response.

Unless PAD doesn't consider it a problem that the book he wrote is supposed to be apart of an ongoing series but doesn't at all fit with that series from the books coming before it and then the book immediately following his was commissioned in part for the express purpose of fixing some of the inconsistencies in his book. Then here is where our idea of "quality" differs greatly.

 

[Octavia]

^In all fairness, though (and I loath the idea of defending BD), Peter David isn't the only one who doesn't grasp continuity when it comes to Voyager. Golden turned Mark from a philosopher into some sort of plant scientist, and Libby from an artist to a musician-cum-spy (there aren't a set of roll eyes big enough for that). And having skimmed through the preview of Full Circle on Amazon, you don't get as far as page 7 without a similar mistake - Beyer appears to believe it was Harry who blew up the Caretaker's array, when it was actually Tuvok.

Now I do agree that the authors should be familiar enough to get this on their own, but even so, the one common factor in these mistakes is the editing. Not even getting into all the other problems in the Voyager books (and to my mind they are legion), the editing at Pocket, at least when it comes to Voyager, appears to be consistently off. It's been sloppy for years, and doesn't seem to have improved. Even the best author in the world makes mistakes from time to time - supposedly, the editors are there to catch them?

 

[LightningStorm]

I fear there is confusion in what I'm talking about.

My posts are not at all referring to Voyager or Janeway or anything like that. I'm talking specifically about Kadohata and Leybenzon as depicted in Q&A vs those depicted in Before Dishonor.

As for Golden's relaunch and Libby specifically: While it may seem odd and or unbelievable that Libby went from "unknown girlfriend of Harry Kim" to "super spy" at least Golden attempted to offer explanation as to how that happened and didn't make it appear as if Libby had always been this way. Whether or not one accepts that explanation is a different issue.

The Mark thing.. I didn't recall enough information about him from Caretaker to know if he was written incorrectly or not.

 

[Saito S]

Lots of stuff about Before Dishonor

Hmm... some interesting points being made about the book by several people. Earlier, I said that while I liked it, I did have issue with some parts of it; perhaps without really realizing it, I was essentially talking about some of the same stuff you guys were. I haven't read any New Frontier, so I obviously wouldn't immediately identify anything as feeling like it "belonged in NF", but some of the "wacky shit" did feel sort of out of place. Like, I'd be reading and it's going along well, then suddenly there's one part that's just... not bad, exactly, but just kinda makes me go "... Huh. Okay then..." As I mentioned, David has not been an author I liked as much as some of the others I've read, so far. Of course, that - like everything else - is a matter of personal preference.

Well, as I've said before (when various people have accused the Trek book writers of not caring about the characters they wrote about), nobody's doing this for the money. Not KRAD, who's never written a Trek book I've disliked, and not John Vornholt, who's never written one I didn't.

Yeah... as an aspiring novel writer myself (not just Trek stories, although certainly that too), it's been made pretty clear to me that it's important to realize that it's a rare novel that makes so much money for the author that you can count on writing as a primary source of income. You have to regard it as a labor of love, and - accordingly - have another job to go along with it.

Although...I guess it is good to continually get exposed to new points of view. I've been enjoying Saito S's posts a lot,

and that's not just 'cause I agree with him/her in most of the things s/he says - it's more that his/her (okay, that's getting to be annoying, even to me)

arguments/points are made in a sensible, levelheaded manner, and it's good to hear from someone who hasn't been through this a couple of thousand times already (no offense to Thrawn, Therin, Trent Roman, etc. - you guys know I love ya!)....

Well, this was my goal, to not come off as a raving lunatic, so I'm happy to know I may have succeeded, in at least one person's eyes.
And I agree about a lot of what you said regarding Janeway and Voyager as well, although I will say that I basically liked her...for the most part. She was never one of my favorite characters, and the inconsistent writing for her was absolutely maddening, but I did think Mulgrew did a good job with what she was given. I will also say that personally, I wouldn't say Voyager was "appalling" in it's execution. Heavily flawed, to be sure, but I can't get away from the fact that as many problems as there were throughout the show, as many bad episodes as there were (especially in the later seasons), there were just too many eps that I really enjoyed for me to write off the series as a whole (especially in the later seasons). Yes, you read that right; I am of the opinion that the later seasons had a larger number of both truly awful and truly awesome eps than the earlier seasons.

Sorry to go on like this, and again, I don't mean to be difficult - and I certainly am not discounting Lynx's or anybody else's right to an opinion - I just wonder whether there's any point to this particular argument any more?

And you may very well be right about the fact that there's not much practical purpose to be had at this point. I originally jumped in simply because I thought it was an interesting discussion (until that point, I had read the whole thread, during my months of professional lurking on this site), though I admit I also got caught up in addressing what I perceived as flaws in Lynx's approach in the argument; the whole "presenting opinions as facts" thing. But as long as everyone remains civil and open (which I think has been the case for the most part), it does remain simply an interesting set of topics, IMO.

Ye gods. My posts are always ridiculously long. I guess I really am an aspiring novel writer; I appear to be practicing on the boards.

Oh, and ClayinCA, I really like your avatar! Just another 28 posts and I can put up mine... heh.

 

[William Leisner]

I fully grant that there could be other circumstances that prevented these things from coming together that were outside of both his and Margaret's control, however back when the book came out he apparently blogged about it when people asked about this and essentially gave the 'it's not my fault' response.

I'm unsure what you are trying to say here. If you accept that there may have been things beyond PAD's control, then isn't "it's not my fault" -- i.e., the problem was from things beyond my control -- in fact the correct answer?

Now, I don't know how things went down with the contracting, writing, and editing of BD. And if I did, it would not be my place to spread it all over the internet. I'm going to guess that PAD likewise feels it improper to make excuses and point fingers, or say anything more than what he's said already.

 

[Octavia]

I fear there is confusion in what I'm talking about.

My posts are not at all referring to Voyager or Janeway or anything like that. I'm talking specifically about Kadohata and Leybenzon as depicted in Q&A vs those depicted in Before Dishonor.

I realise that. I just think that the problem you are pointing out doesn't exist by itself or in a vacuum. It's not the only problem of its kind, and IMO they all stem from the same place - insufficient communication between TrekLit employees, coupled with a lack of editorial oversight and quality control.

For the latter one can only blame the editors. For the former, well, communication is a two way street.

 

[JB2005]

Then you have no right to comment, because for all you know we've all been lying and Janeway isn't really dead

Bullshit. Enough data has been relayed about the book for people to make informed decisions on whether or not it's something they would enjoy. Lynx doesn't need to read Before Dishonor to know that it would not be pleasing to him, anymore than I need to view the collected works of the Wayan Brothers to know I would hate them.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

And while this would usually be the case, it isn't always. Mary Whitehouse made several mistakes during her career because she assumed from what she had heard.

Besides you can't judge a book by it's cover...it's a cliche but there it is.

 

[LightningStorm]

I fully grant that there could be other circumstances that prevented these things from coming together that were outside of both his and Margaret's control, however back when the book came out he apparently blogged about it when people asked about this and essentially gave the 'it's not my fault' response.

I'm unsure what you are trying to say here. If you accept that there may have been things beyond PAD's control, then isn't "it's not my fault" -- i.e., the problem was from things beyond my control -- in fact the correct answer?

Now, I don't know how things went down with the contracting, writing, and editing of BD. And if I did, it would not be my place to spread it all over the internet. I'm going to guess that PAD likewise feels it improper to make excuses and point fingers, or say anything more than what he's said already.

When I read that on his blog it came across more along the lines of it not being his fault because keeping continuity was someone else's job. (Basically exactly what some others have said here.) The kind of outside circumstances I was thinking of as being possible are things like some kind of personal life issues or things like that, that would have made him just barely meet the deadline. I didn't gather that anything like this was the case, but that two people dropped the ball on keeping continuity within a series.