How was the Federation victory legal?
- Thread starter Solarbaby
- Start date
I agree with what you are saying. But this doesnt reflect Gene Roddenberry's vision of a utopian Federation. DS9 turned it around. I have discussed this before on different threads that the Federation should not have to resort to using Section 31 to prop it up when their ideals and moral fail to protect it. It is a big ugly lie to project the image of a tolerant peaceful civilisation, when in fact it sinks as low any of it's enemies.
From a storytelling angle this is great conflicted drama, and I personally loved the dark side it went down. However I also really loved the idealism of a future society where the Federation really was a beautiful democracy that worked. I know that it is too good to be true in reality. I feel that if I was Joe public and learned what the Federation did I'd be calling for enquiries. Or for a reform of law to reflect the new public ethos of the Federation council. Right before Section 31 had me go missing.
Starfleet didn't resort to Section 31, they have no control of Section 31, officially. Section 31 is a Rogue Organization.
Now personally, I believe there are Admirals that keep track of Section 31 and turn a blind eye (And perhaps at times help or impede their goals) and claim no complicity nor knowledge. But, officially, it is weel known that Section 31 is not Starfleet, and Starfleet doesn't condone their actions.
I agree with what you are saying. But this doesnt reflect Gene Roddenberry's vision of a utopian Federation. DS9 turned it around. I have discussed this before on different threads that the Federation should not have to resort to using Section 31 to prop it up when their ideals and moral fail to protect it. It is a big ugly lie to project the image of a tolerant peaceful civilisation, when in fact it sinks as low any of it's enemies.
From a storytelling angle this is great conflicted drama, and I personally loved the dark side it went down. However I also really loved the idealism of a future society where the Federation really was a beautiful democracy that worked. I know that it is too good to be true in reality. I feel that if I was Joe public and learned what the Federation did I'd be calling for enquiries. Or for a reform of law to reflect the new public ethos of the Federation council. Right before Section 31 had me go missing.
Starfleet didn't resort to Section 31, they have no control of Section 31, officially. Section 31 is a Rogue Organization.
Now personally, I believe there are Admirals that keep track of Section 31 and turn a blind eye (And perhaps at times help or impede their goals) and claim no complicity nor knowledge. But, officially, it is weel known that Section 31 is not Starfleet, and Starfleet doesn't condone their actions.
Yeah, and no one is seriously going to believe that. They're a group of Federation citizens advancing Federation agendas. Even Odo blamed the Federation for the virus.
^But, Odo was hardly ever a Federation/Starfleet cheerleader. How many times did he quit without notice because he had to work with Starfleet officer over the course of the series?
He was a large critic of Starfleet and was usually quite quick to point even the smallest flaws with Federation culture. I could name Romulans senators and members of the Obsidian Order who were higher on the Federation than Odo was.
He was a large critic of Starfleet and was usually quite quick to point even the smallest flaws with Federation culture. I could name Romulans senators and members of the Obsidian Order who were higher on the Federation than Odo was.
Every time Sisko mentions reporting Section 31 to Starfleet, they basically become wishy-washy about any details, and Sloan was on DS9 IMMEDIATELY once Bashir informed Starfleet about the cure.
The party line is to claim that Section 31 is "rogue", but really, it's more of an organization that you'd see in the United States or another Western nation. They exist, but they can't really be known to exist, and certainly they can never be discovered doing something compromising. It's a Black Ops program.
This^^
If they really are rogue then why isn't the Federation stopping them? Hunting them down publicly or at least acknowledging their existence when Bashir complained.
When the Maquis became a rogue organisation and no longer part of the Federation they still sent in Fed ships to clean up the mess and stop war with the Cardassians. Section31 is even more dangerous than a rag tag fleet of vigilantes. They can commit genocide with apparently no repercussions. If somehow, someway the Federation was brought to trial by higher powers such as the Q continuum- they wouldn't have a leg to stand on
Remember the context. This wasn't the normal state of affairs; this was during the Dominion War, when the Federation was on the run and in danger of defeat. DS9 was often about challenging the Federation's values, exploring the difficulties of remaining true to one's ideals when the situation grew dark enough. "It's easy to be a saint when you live in paradise," as Sisko said in "The Maquis." So it's fundamentally missing the point to think that DS9 was representing how the Federation routinely does business. The Dominion War arc was about putting the Federation through hell, straining its ideals and morals to the breaking point, and exploring how those ideals became compromised in the process.
So in the depths of the Dominion War, when the Federation was in danger of extinction, Starfleet and the UFP government looked the other way when Section 31 did terrible things, because they felt they had to. That does not mean they would always tolerate Section 31. It meant that, when their very survival as a civilization was at stake, they would bend rules that under normal circumstances they would rigorously uphold. It's the same as "In the Pale Moonlight." Just because Sisko tolerated Garak's crimes in that episode, when the situation was desperate enough that he had no choice, that absolutely does not mean that Sisko would always tolerate murder and deceit. Assuming that would be completely misunderstanding the episode. And assuming that the Federation would always tolerate Section 31 is misunderstanding the entire Dominion War storyline. It was supposed to represent an extreme, a breaking point, not the normal state of affairs.
(I'm reminded of how people missed the point of Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. It was never meant to depict how Batman would normally operate, but to represent the worst possible extreme that Gotham could sink to and explore what extremes Batman would be driven to in response. Yet fans and creators overlooked that and used it as a model for how Batman and Gotham were routinely portrayed for the next decade or two.)
That's the point, though, isn't it? Up until the war, Section 31 wasn't exactly using WMDs against the Klingons, or the Romulans during peace time. Section 31 is mostly unnecessary, and leaves it to Starfleet Intelligence. Now sure they might do...something, but it's probably more low-key, like, for example, recruiting agents and informants in alien empires. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Legas" most likely is a good example, where the Chairman of the Tal Shiar, Korval, was turned into an intelligence asset, something a bit too ballsy for a normal Starfleet Intelligence operation.
However, once they're needed for the real dirty work, they're there. Starfleet will turn a blind eye to them, or even work with them (as Admiral Ross proves). It would have been interesting if Section 31 actually tried to murder Bashir due to his research efforts.
^But that doesn't mean that Starfleet actually sanctions Section 31 and keeps it around deliberately. No. Section 31 is a criminal cabal who answer to no one but themselves. They corrupt the Federation while using its defense as their excuse for an agenda that's really more about serving their own self-interest and secrecy. But when that criminal organization took actions that happened to serve the UFP's interest in the war, some people in Starfleet and the government -- people who would normally have tried to root out the corruption, or at least opposed it on principle -- chose to look the other way and tolerate it. (Kinda like in The Rocketeer when the heroes and the mobsters fought together against the Nazis. That didn't mean the US government intentionally formed the Mafia as a black-ops organization.)
^
"I may be a criminal but I'm an -American- criminal!" That was one of my favorite lines.
But I'm not sure the analogy fits. The mob was out for itself, not the country. Just when their interests crossed over national lines, they backed the country. For selfish reasons too. Nazi Germany never would have allowed the mob the freedom to operate that US democracy does.
Section 31's reason for being isn't it's own ends, but to further the goals of the Federation by any means possible. They are Federation people, advancing Federation agendas. Deniability here isn't plausible at all. No other foreign power can seriously be expected to buy the "they have no official sanction" line.
"I may be a criminal but I'm an -American- criminal!" That was one of my favorite lines.
But I'm not sure the analogy fits. The mob was out for itself, not the country. Just when their interests crossed over national lines, they backed the country. For selfish reasons too. Nazi Germany never would have allowed the mob the freedom to operate that US democracy does.
Section 31's reason for being isn't it's own ends, but to further the goals of the Federation by any means possible. They are Federation people, advancing Federation agendas. Deniability here isn't plausible at all. No other foreign power can seriously be expected to buy the "they have no official sanction" line.
Section 31 says its actions serve the security of the Federation. But you take any secret organization that's answerable to nobody, let it operate for a few generations, and it's going to end up being focused more on preserving its own secrecy and justifying its own existence than anything else. The security of the Federation is just its excuse. Arguably their actions are more likely to harm the Federation than help it, for just the reasons you suggest -- because they'd turn others against the Federation if their actions were discovered. So all of S31's rhetoric about serving the Federation's security is hypocritical rubbish. I'm willing to believe that's what it was about in the Enterprise era, but after 200 years without oversight or answerability, there's no way it hasn't become irredeemably corrupt and insular.
I'm not denying they are bad people, answerable to no one. What I was arguing is how you seriously expect someone like the Romulans or Cardassians to take such a line seriously. I'm sure they regularly deny the actions of the TalShiar and Obsidian Order respectively after all.
Like it or not, they are the Federation's responsibility.
Like it or not, they are the Federation's responsibility.
Except what generally turns Black Ops groups rogue (aka financial greed) doesn't exist within the Federation. As such, there's no real evidence that Section 31 is serving its own self-interest. All of its actions seen within the series, in some way, helped the Federation in the war effort, and would help the Federation after the war is complete.
Of course they're secretive...it would be pretty bad if the rival intelligence organizations knew of their activities, but they didn't go all out in securing their secrecy through more...lethal means. If I, for example, heard that Dr. Bashir was actively trying to discover a cure, on top of attempting to locate Section 31 members...Oh...no...Dr. Bashir died tragically in a shuttle accident. What a horrible, completely accidental tragedy. See my point?
Sadly, I haven't seen The Rocketeer yet, I really should get on that. Anyway, the Mafia and Section 31 don't fit. Section 31's crimes are, from what we've seen, deal with other empires, not internal criminal actions within the Federation.
The female changeling's authority to surrender was recognized by all alpha quadrant jem'hadar and by the breen.
And then, recognized by the great link.
That makes the Federation's victory as legal as it can get.
No that 'legality' matters much in those matters:
The dominion forces in the alpha/beta quadrants were contained/defeated; the dominion could not recognize defeat all it wanted - it was still defeated.
As for biological weaponry being illegal:
As per federation law, sure.
As per dominion law (which was whatever the founders said it was), not so much:
In DS9: The Quickening, the dominion long ago defeated a rebellion. But this alone didn't suffice; not even exterminating the rebelling species sufficed. The dominion used a 100% effective biological weapon to kill at an early age and in pain all future generations of the rebelling species. As an example to others.
And, of course, as seen in the last DS9 episodes, the dominion had no qualms whatsoever about genocide, either.
In SF series/movies, only the likes of the goa'uld or the daleks match the dominion for sheer malice.
I've lately thought that the agents of Section 31, especially Sloan, were akin to the Operative of Serenity. True believers taking actions in the name of an ideal society (the defense or creation of one, anyway), willing to be monsters for that society's benefit, so that others wouldn't have to be.
Is Section 31 truly rogue, though? They take their name from Article 14 Section 31 of a charter. Is it the Federation or Starfleet charter? Either way, doesn't the existence of that section in a charter create a legal sanction for the agency? We have no idea how vague or specific the wording of the section is. I suppose it couldn't matter until somehow Section 31 were brought to a trial. If all the agents were rounded up and put on trial, wouldn't their defense attorney bring up the section that justifies bending the rules at certain times (that's why that section was added). Sure, they're not operating with any oversight, but we don't know that the wording of Section 31 requires officers act with oversight. Maybe the wording of Article 14 Section 31 just stipulates Starfleet officers must use their "best judgment"!
Is Section 31 truly rogue, though? They take their name from Article 14 Section 31 of a charter. Is it the Federation or Starfleet charter? Either way, doesn't the existence of that section in a charter create a legal sanction for the agency? We have no idea how vague or specific the wording of the section is. I suppose it couldn't matter until somehow Section 31 were brought to a trial. If all the agents were rounded up and put on trial, wouldn't their defense attorney bring up the section that justifies bending the rules at certain times (that's why that section was added). Sure, they're not operating with any oversight, but we don't know that the wording of Section 31 requires officers act with oversight. Maybe the wording of Article 14 Section 31 just stipulates Starfleet officers must use their "best judgment"!
Well even straight shooters like Ross are willing to work with 31 whenever convenient for example. So I never really bought that anyone's making any effort to take them down. As Odo says, it's a "tidy arrangement" they do the dirty work while the holier than thou Federation reaps the benefits and clucks their tongues disapprovingly.
In DS9 "Inquisition", Sloan says that "Section 31 was part of the original Starfleet charter". Bashir says this was "200 years ago", suggesting Bashir thinks Sloan speaks of the charter of the UFP Starfleet.
Sloan doesn't correct him, but it appears that Bashir misunderstood. In the 2150s already, ENT introduces a shadowy character named Harris (previously but not currently on UE Starfleet payroll) and a shadowy organization Reed calls "your section" at Harris' face. When Archer gets annoyed at Harris' illegal antics, this exchange follows:
The UE Starfleet Charter being discussed there obviously is a long-existing document that predates the UFP Starfleet Charter.
(Two centuries is a bit low for the age of such a document, then. Although Bashir may have understood that Sloan spoke of the UESF Charter rather than the UFPSF one when saying "original", and Bashir just rounded down a bit because the document wasn't quite full three old yet. Never mind whether Bashir got it right or wrong, though.)
It is of course possible that Sloan's organization is in no way related to Harris', just like latter-day Freemasons aren't really related to the secret societies of the world of antiquity even if they wished they were. Harris' bunch never call themselves Section 31, but just plain Section; for all we know, they are a section of UE Starfleet Intelligence and it's something of a semantic coincidence that they refer to a section of the UESF Charter in justifying their villainy.
If Harris is to be believed, the section says Starfleet can get naughty when it really needs to. So it's not a "deniability clause" at all - any naughtiness there will still be Starfleet naughtiness, and the entire UFP should fry for it if caught.
Timo Saloniemi
The deniability clause is really moot. As I mentioned earlier, there's no way any foreign power that 31 might screw with is going to not believe they're with the Federation. Section 31 is advancing the Federation's agendas however dark or twisted they may see it.
I seriously doubt the Dominion, who would know -everything- about 31 and the virus from Odo linking with them, are going to draw any distinction between Section 31 and the Federation for example.
I seriously doubt the Dominion, who would know -everything- about 31 and the virus from Odo linking with them, are going to draw any distinction between Section 31 and the Federation for example.
The link supposedly isn't about exchanging information though.
http://www.chakoteya.net/ds9/528.htm
"ODO: The Link isn't about exchanging information. It's about merging thought and form, idea and sensation"
Possible, but unlikely in my opinion. Recall that Odo was quite pissed when he learned that Section 31 were the ones who infected the Link.
He went so far as to say "you" did this(meaning the Federation) and called it a "tidy arrangment."
His loyalty never was to the Federation anyways, so I don't see why he'd go out of his way to keep their secrets, especially one that literally hit below the belt as they used -him- as the carrier to infect the Link.
And the quote you mentioned... Odo -was- trying to justify himself to Kira why he was making jello with the female Founder, so it's possible he wasn't being completely candid. Certainly the Founders were able to put the information that Gowron was a shapeshifter into Odo's head and make it even look like they were hiding it. So it's entirely possible even if Odo wanted to keep the secret, the Founders, being better shapeshifters and Linkers and whatever, could wrench it from him.
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