How unified does a planet/race have to be to join the UFP?

[Cyfa]

I've just finished reading David R. George III's DS9 Typhon Pact novel Raise the Dawn, and in it, Admiral Leonard James Akaar ponders when (The Ten Tribes of) Capella will be "mature" enough to join the United Federation of Planets (he thinks not for a century or so). Now, I know in various live action and literary sources, one of the requirements to join is to have a politically unified world government. This got me thinking...
Currently on Earth, as well as the larger and more prominant nation-states such as the Commonwealth of Australia, the Republic of India, the Federal Republic of Germany etc., there are many smaller, non-politically aligned races/cultures, tribes, and uncontacted peoples. Do these peoples still exist in the Star Trek Universe (I hope so)? Did they have a say in the formation of the United Earth, or were they swept along for the ride, whether knowingly or not? Do other planets within the UFP have their own tribes who may or may not know that the majority of their planet's population has joined the UFP?
I don't know if this has been covered before, whether here on the Trek BBS or in the shows/literature, but I'm just curious about what people think, and the practicalities of such planetary unity.

 

[Dilandu]

Well, at least several of the novels suggested that the general idea is that planet must have a unified & more or less democratic planetary government, which would function as superior to any local ones. The local governments aren't forbidden, but they must be subordinated to the global.

 

[Timo]

Hard to say about "democratic", as we don't know if the UFP is such a body. I mean, Kirk claims it is, in "Errand of Mercy", but we never hear of a popular vote of any sort.

Since we don't hear about a popular vote, we have little idea on the possible voting blocks involved. Does a unified planetary government refer to every citizen getting one vote in deciding what the planet then votes on in the broader UFP context? Isn't that horribly unfair toward the Vulcan minority living on Earth who'd like to vote the same way about a UFP issue as their relatives on Vulcan do, but have to contribute to the contrarian Earth vote instead?

Hopefully, "unified government" simply means that the factions on a given planet don't actually fight each other like nations today do, even though every faction and indeed every individual is allowed an independent say in galactic affairs. This would allow for monarchies (for what else is Andoria, with its "Imperial Guard"?), theocracies (Bajor being one didn't appear to be a showstopper, and Vulcan may be one, too) and assorted anarchies and whatnot to join and participate. OTOH, the "no infighting" clause would disqualify KesPrytt, which was the point of the debate in "Attached".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dilandu]

Well... with the Federation level of communication tech, even the direct democracy is possible (i.e. actually call for people's voting for any major new law). But I must agree, the internal structure of Federation isn't as well shown as, for example, Klingon Empire.

 

[Timo]

Modern tech would probably also allow for a workable variant of direct democracy, with AI routines analyzing the literally constant, "social media style" input of votes, and deciding which votes to ignore and which to accept, based on utilitarian considerations and a wealth of statistical data on the individual voters and their voting patterns.

We might see something like that in the near future. But we certainly don't see constant voting in Trek: on screen, only the political elite gets a vote.

The UFP is big on keeping natives ignorant. It would make sense for the Prime Directive to apply on people living on UFP worlds, too, making the "tribal issue" pretty clear-cut. Or then the voting AIs would make note of an absence of a vote and use that, too, to determine the outcome of the vote, deciding whether abstaining "really" means indifference, support or opposition.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The local governments aren't forbidden, but they must be subordinated to the global.

Exactly, they just become part of a greater whole. For instance, individual nationstates on Earth still exist even after United Earth was formed, and (further up the food chain) United Earth is a member world of the Federation like any other.

 

[Timo]

We don't exactly know that...

I mean, we know of a couple of members, and those tend to be associated with a specific world. But that world is also synonym to a culture and a species: Vulcan is a member, say. The jury is very much out on whether this means that Vulcans are a member species, or that planet Vulcan is. What of the poor Vulcans of Earth or Andor or Deneva?

And that's just Vulcans, who supposedly don't venture offworld all that much, and don't approve of interspecies marriages and the like.

Also, nation states on Earth are not really known to exist. Regions on Earth are known to exist, and are named after recognizable things such as the nation states of today, but no form of government appears to be associated with said regions. Apparently national flags have also ceased to exist, as they are recognized for what they were, but consistently in the past tense. Etc.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cyfa]

Thank you all for responding with such good points.

The UFP is big on keeping natives ignorant. It would make sense for the Prime Directive to apply on people living on UFP worlds, too, making the "tribal issue" pretty clear-cut. Or then the voting AIs would make note of an absence of a vote and use that, too, to determine the outcome of the vote, deciding whether abstaining "really" means indifference, support or opposition.

- I was thinking along the same lines regarding the "tribal issue" (except the voting AIs - I hadn't considered how the voting would actually work). I suppose, as with all/most voting, it's the majority who decide, and I imagine this is the case for all UFP members (be they planets, races, or some other unified body).

 

[mlk]

One thing that strikes me often enough is that most of the major planets in the ST universe, Vulcan, Kronos, Romulus, Cardassia, Bajor etc are all unified to the point where there are no countries and usually a shared language. The one exception is Earth (I think) which still have countries altough it seems that they are all more or less adapted to a western european cultural hegemony.

So are there any examples where a planet actually have countries with different cultures, it seems to be impossible for a whole planet to have one culture and one language in real life, but in Star Trek there are several. Would be very refreshing with a Vulcan who comes from some other culture then Spocks, but yeah, would be hard for the show to implement.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

It would be complicated and confusing. Plus, many high tech planets have globalized their culture, perhaps in response to feeling drowned out by all the alien races they meet. Those that aren't so high-tech are often only visited once and only one area.

 

[The Old Mixer]

One thing that strikes me often enough is that most of the major planets in the ST universe, Vulcan, Kronos, Romulus, Cardassia, Bajor etc are all unified to the point where there are no countries and usually a shared language. The one exception is Earth (I think) which still have countries altough it seems that they are all more or less adapted to a western european cultural hegemony.

So are there any examples where a planet actually have countries with different cultures, it seems to be impossible for a whole planet to have one culture and one language in real life, but in Star Trek there are several. Would be very refreshing with a Vulcan who comes from some other culture then Spocks, but yeah, would be hard for the show to implement.

Since we already have a recent thread discussing this subject matter, I've merged this into it.

 

[Timo]

Bajor had plenty of different cultures, or at least a sufficiently inconsistent portrayal amounting to the same thing.

Romulus has three "dialects" and two distinct phenotypes, those with smooth foreheads and those without (both of these come with pink and brown skin variants). We don't know if any of that amounts to separate cultures; there are hints of totalitarianism, but also of factionalism.

Does Earth have different cultures? Random words of various languages do get spoken, but even heroes hailing from regions that today don't speak English are in practice always speaking English and nothing but. The last time we heard of somebody having a native tongue other than English was in TOS where Uhura reverted to Swahili when brain-damaged; there was no real evidence Russian would have been Chekov's actual native tongue, and for the Rodzhenkos, Russian or Belorussian only manifested as a funny English accent. In no era are there cultural traits as such in evidence, in things like choice of clothing or music or literature.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

^Chekov momentarily lapsed into Russian when frustrated in both STIII and GEN, Picard spoke French on a number of occasions (including drunkenly singing a French song with his brother in "Family"), and Muniz reverted to Spanish as he was dying in "The Ship" (DS9).

 

[Timo]

I forgot about Muniz. But the other cases are scant evidence of a "native" language. Chekov's Russian pride was always played for laughs, and that would certainly have entailed him cherishing a non-native tongue. Picard, too, was French to a comical effect; since these are supposed to be real people in-universe, we can only surmise the comedy comes from them deliberately playing up to a stereotype.

I guess the decisive point would have been hearing Picard "lapse" into French in his ancestral French home with his family in "Family", establishing for good that they indeed spoke English when we heard them speaking English - but that never happened...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

The planet Kesprytt was apparently eligible for consideration of Federation membership despite having an isolationist country which wasn't part of the world's united government, so clearly 100% unity isn't a requirement. Not sure how it work out practically if such a world did join the Federation though.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

I've just finished reading David R. George III's DS9 Typhon Pact novel Raise the Dawn, and in it, Admiral Leonard James Akaar ponders when (The Ten Tribes of) Capella will be "mature" enough to join the United Federation of Planets (he thinks not for a century or so). Now, I know in various live action and literary sources, one of the requirements to join is to have a politically unified world government. This got me thinking...
Currently on Earth, as well as the larger and more prominant nation-states such as the Commonwealth of Australia, the Republic of India, the Federal Republic of Germany etc., there are many smaller, non-politically aligned races/cultures, tribes, and uncontacted peoples. Do these peoples still exist in the Star Trek Universe (I hope so)? Did they have a say in the formation of the United Earth, or were they swept along for the ride, whether knowingly or not? Do other planets within the UFP have their own tribes who may or may not know that the majority of their planet's population has joined the UFP?
I don't know if this has been covered before, whether here on the Trek BBS or in the shows/literature, but I'm just curious about what people think, and the practicalities of such planetary unity.

I recon (pure speculation), that either:

- Un-contacted Amazonian tribes, etc, died out in World War III

- Un-contacted Amazonian tribes, etc, lost their culture to globalization and standardization (most likely in real life)

- Un-contacted Amazonian tribes, etc, still exist in the United Federation of Planets, and may use as much, or as little, of the Federation's science and healthcare as they choose

If I remember right, there was an episode of Voyager in which Chakotay's father took him on an expedition to meet Central American Indians who had retained (or returned to) their pre-Columbian lifestyle, so maybe that's the evidence right there. Whatever system the Federation uses - whether it's just a post-scarcity really liberal evolution of our current system, or some kind of anarcho-socialism or whatever, it seems people do have autonomy, and the right to opt out. It's just judging by Eddington and the Marquis, few do, because it's so damn good to it's citizens.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

We don't exactly know that...

I mean, we know of a couple of members, and those tend to be associated with a specific world. But that world is also synonym to a culture and a species: Vulcan is a member, say. The jury is very much out on whether this means that Vulcans are a member species, or that planet Vulcan is. What of the poor Vulcans of Earth or Andor or Deneva?

And that's just Vulcans, who supposedly don't venture offworld all that much, and don't approve of interspecies marriages and the like.

Also, nation states on Earth are not really known to exist. Regions on Earth are known to exist, and are named after recognizable things such as the nation states of today, but no form of government appears to be associated with said regions. Apparently national flags have also ceased to exist, as they are recognized for what they were, but consistently in the past tense. Etc.

Timo Saloniemi

In Attached the old 'nation states' on Earth are referred to as a historical relic.

But, in several cases people refer to places by the names of the country, indicating that region of origin is still considered a point of personal pride and identity.

In Paradise Lost it's unclear to me whether the president is Earth president or Federation president but that's the only evidence of a democratic civilian government.

 

[locutus101]

I think one of the key elements is that you must not piss Riker.

 

[The Wormhole]

In Paradise Lost it's unclear to me whether the president is Earth president or Federation president but that's the only evidence of a democratic civilian government.

The President in Homefront and Paradise Lost is the Federation President, that's made very clear in the episode. He's making decisions concerning Earth because the writers felt including a separate Earth government would confuse the audience.

 

[Timo]

Whether he represents a democratic civilian government is another issue. He has "voters", but are those the Earthlings, or the Grazerites, or all the Feds - or perhaps just the Council Members?

We know of only two levels of government in the UFP: the top level, with the Council and the President, and a planetary level, only ever witnessed on select few worlds (such as Ardana in "The Cloud Minders"). Even a two-level structure could be taken as evidence of a general hierarchical system with implicit multiple levels down to village chieftains. Conversely, it could be total direct democracy without any sort of local governing except for the select cases in actual evidence.

Timo Saloniemi