How To Save American Public Schools Pt. 1

[Dayton3]

People vastly overrate the influence teachers can have on the vast majority of students these days.

Sure, there are the occasional "hero teachers" like Jaime Escalante or Ron Clark who come in to what seems like an impossible situation and completely transform hopeless students.

But most teachers are not that good. And note, Escalante was some two decades ago when things were different.

Expecting "hero teachers" out of teachers that have to endure the current teaching environment is ridiculous.

 

[Dayton3]

Ridiculous idea. The state has no right to fine parents for their children missing school.

Yes they do.

If you are sending your kids to a publicly funded institution, then the government can quite legally make all sorts of requirements binding upon people.

Whenever you partake of a government funded service, your freedom of action is curtailed.

 

[ITL]

*ahem*

 

[ParticleMan]

Fixing schools is simple: Better educators.

That's nearly as simplistic a solution. You can fill the school with the best damn educators in the universe and if the parents don't give a shit, kids will still miss school and will still goof off.

The best schools have a combination of great, committed teachers and involved parents.

I live in a city with a crappy public school system. They're nearly $100 million in the whole on what they call an "accounting error" that necessitated teachers losing jobs during the school year. .

The schools on the whole are stereotypical public schools - low test scores, crowded classrooms, and the like. There are a number of standouts and every single one has a strong parent commitment and involvement in the school.

When parents are involved and committed to the education process, their students do better. They go to school, they participate, and they learn. The parents know what is going on and deliver the message to the kids that school is important and what you do at school will have consequences at home.

I'd bet that there's a direct correlation in Trippy's class between the students who are more engaged in learning and the level of involvement/ commitment of their parents. Might even go so far as to say it's a causal relationship.

For the record, we have chosen to pay for education twice by sending our kids to a private school. One of the teachers is new to the school this year, she came from the public school. A comment she made to my wife was that she sometimes wished the parents would leave her alone - there's so much involvement. Coming from the public system, the parents that called her back or communicated with her stood out for their uniqueness.

Best teacher I've ever had.

As good as he was, I'd wager that if your parents didn't stress the importance of education and behaving yourself, the likelihood of you having the same experience would have been much less.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Good schools need to have good teachers and good parents working together for the benefit of the students. And I think that equation shifts a bit in the direction of the parents rather than the teachers.

I had some pretty lousy teachers growing up, but I had good parents who instilled in me that desire to learn and do well. I was able to thrive, even in the classroom of a moron teacher. But I think that in more cases than not, an unmotivated student is less likely to thrive in a good teacher's classroom than the other way around.

And I am all for high standards for who we hire as teachers, but one has to keep in mind that an education degree does not necessarily make someone a good teacher. I knew people with M.Eds and Ed.Ds who couldn't teach to save their lives. There needs to be constant accountability and feedback given to new teachers to help them improve their methods...you can't just throw a 22 year old with a degree into a room with 25 17 year olds and let them figure it out for themselves. An education degree, in all honesty, does very, VERY little to prepare you for actually being in the room. Ed majors need as much real classroom experience as they can get while in college and good mentoring from experienced teachers when they get started. And if they aren't cutting it after a couple of years...cut them loose...

 

[JuanBolio]

Ridiculous idea. The state has no right to fine parents for their children missing school.

Yes they do.

If you are sending your kids to a publicly funded institution, then the government can quite legally make all sorts of requirements binding upon people.

Whenever you partake of a government funded service, your freedom of action is curtailed.

It would be swiftly brought before a court by angry parents, and the policy thrown out.

 

[Dayton3]

Ridiculous idea. The state has no right to fine parents for their children missing school.

Yes they do.

If you are sending your kids to a publicly funded institution, then the government can quite legally make all sorts of requirements binding upon people.

Whenever you partake of a government funded service, your freedom of action is curtailed.

It would be swiftly brought before a court by angry parents, and the policy thrown out.

On what basis?

Courts have repeatedly held that schools have the right to do things such as conduct warrantless searches of students, drug tests, et cetera.

 

[Von_Steinwehr]

I thought I might include my two cents about education in public schools. I graduated in 2005, 23 at the time, with a BS degree in secondary education with certification in History (world and US), economics, political science, and geography. But I REALLY wanted to teach US History (and I did not want to coach, I just wanted to be a teacher). I took all the required education courses from childhood psychology, course content and methods, lesson plans, curriculum design, etc, educational statistics, etc. When I started the student teaching phases, a semester long stint that included 7 weeks teaching 11th grade US history and 7 weeks teaching 8th American history, my educational training did not help me one bit. Sure I could prepare lessons, but that was about it.

I started off with highschool on block schedule (90 minutes classes). The first week I observed the teacher. Honestly, she sat in front of the classroom behind her desk and read the notes to them. That took up at best 15-20 minutes. The rest of the class time the students had to themselves (ie goof off). She had no classroom control and let students come and go from the room as they pleased. When I started I mapped out the period to do different things (questioning the class for 5-10 minutes about the previous day's material, "lectured" for 20 minutes, worksheet for 20 minutes, went over the worksheet for 10-15 minutes, and assigned the homework and let them finish out the period working on that). The class honest to God revolted against me. They keyed my car in the parking lot, lashed my tires, dumped water on me in the bathroom. They ran to the teacher saying I was too hard and required too much work. I gave essay exams!!!!! The teacher told me to lay off on so much work. So I did. Then my supervising Professor that came into to critique my work said I wasn't doing enough and I had no control over the class. I am standing there thinking how can I "control" the class when their regular teacher doesn't and I am only here for a brief period of time.

I must say that my confidence was quite shaken after my failure at trying to teach high school and the poor grade I received from my supervising professor. So I finally make it through my 7 week tour and I started the 8th grade US teaching. The principal at the middle school has a conference with me and informs me that she knew I had a difficult time teaching at the high school level and expected a better performance at her school. The 8th Grade teacher had MUCH BETTER control of his students, in fact he had scared the crap out of them. I followed his example and did not have any issues at all and was the most enjoyable experience of my student teaching time.

Now I am 27 and I am working on my Ph.D in US History. I have thought everal times about possibly returning to the public school environment should I not make it through the doctorate program. But I have serious concerns about the way education, particularly the way high school and middle school history functions. My comments are directed only at teaching US and World History. First, especally for high school, I feel there should be lecture involved. Some of these students will be going on to college and when that take that first required history survey course, the professor is going to lecture and not do the "touchy feely" group work crap that is done in high school. I have SO MANY undergraduates in my US history survey class that I teach come by my office and talk about not knowing how to take notes during lecture. Also, I give essay exams and ID terms. The quality of writing, even at the introductory level, is terrible, and I am not asking for all too much: a minor thesis statement, supporting evidence, and a conclusion.

I also have issues with NCLB. It looks good in theory. But in practice I don't think it has succeeded and I hope the new administration will make changes to it. I remember being so disappointed in teaching high school and middle school history that I had to cram dates and memorization. That is not history: it is trivia. But because that end of the year exam counts so much for school funding, evaluation of preformance, etc. I had to prepare students to know that 1776 = Independence from Britain; 1861-1865 = Civil War; 1929 = Start of Depression; Dec 7, 1941 = US entry into WW2. I never got to do the exciting stuff because of that damned test. I never got to do the exciting stuff like breaking down the Declaration of Independence and how slavery was justified. The Civil War and military strategy (why was Grant a good or bad general). The students NEVER got to do the interesting parts of history because NCLB had it outlined what is to be covered.

I never liked that my future depended on a 15-18 year old scoring well on an exam. In my area the end of the year exam does not count for percentage of the student's grade. So bascially you give the test out and hope the students take it seriously. If I had stayed in public schools, I would have taught the subject and would not have been that history teacher who assigned section review questions and that was it. But there is only so much a teacher can do in the classroom. If "Johnny" doesn't take responsibilty and study at home, is that my fault? No, but I get punished because Johnny did not do well on the end of the year exam.

Wow this turned into a much longer response than I had planned on. I will finish by saying, that public schools are not perfect and alot can/should be done. I think one area that would really help in accountability on both sides from teachers AND students AND parents.

 

[Franklin]

Chronic abseteeism that occurs because the student wants to cut class should be handled by first notifying the parent or guardian that the student has been missing classes. Second, the student and parent or guardian should be called in to meet with a student counsellor to find out what is going on. Third, at this meeting, it should be made clear to the student and his or her parent or guardian that chronic absenteeism will lead to poor grades, flunking, and being held back. Or, simply missing too many classes itself can lead to being held back despite grades. If a student doesn't fear being held back, then I don't know what you can do for him or her.

Also, frankly, how big a problem is chronic absenteeism? Any percentages out there? Any percentage of unresolved cases?

 

[JuanBolio]

On what basis?

On the basis that children are not required to attend public school at all, much less have perfect attendance.

 

[Franklin]

On what basis?

On the basis that children are not required to attend public school at all, much less have perfect attendance.

Actually, I think they are required to go to school or at least be educated, public, private, or at home. But maybe laws vary by state. I also think a certain minimum number of days attended is required or a student can be held back. Again, I apologize if I have this ass-backwards.

 

[JuanBolio]

On what basis?

On the basis that children are not required to attend public school at all, much less have perfect attendance.

Actually, I think they are required to go to school or at least be educated, public, private, or at home. But maybe laws vary by state. I also think a certain minimum number of days attended is required or a student can be held back. Again, I apologize if I have this ass-backwards.

You can hold them back, sure, if they're enrolled in public school and miss too many days. However, parents can excuse as many absences as they like. If the absences are unexcused, the children ca be punished in school and have their parents informed. But slapping the parents with a fine? They're no possible legal justification for that. None.

 

[Franklin]

On the basis that children are not required to attend public school at all, much less have perfect attendance.

Actually, I think they are required to go to school or at least be educated, public, private, or at home. But maybe laws vary by state. I also think a certain minimum number of days attended is required or a student can be held back. Again, I apologize if I have this ass-backwards.

You can hold them back, sure, if they're enrolled in public school and miss too many days. However, parents can excuse as many absences as they like. If the absences are unexcused, the children ca be punished in school and have their parents informed. But slapping the parents with a fine? They're no possible legal justification for that. None.

Oh, God, no. I don't agree with the OP at all. If the parents are excusing absences and the school system is conscientious enough to follow up, they should call social services to investigate the situation. But, if there is some reason to believe the parents or guardians are basically complicit in the student missing classes (no real reason for the absences to be excused), there may be some law or laws broken.

 

[Dayton3]

IIRC, some states already have truancy laws where parents can be punished.

Don't have a link and I could be wrong though.

Either way, the only way to force student compliance in many cases is to fine the parents.

Parents can already be fined for some offenses by their children IIRC.

 

[JuanBolio]

I imagine the type of kid who misses THAT MUCH school isn't going to give a damn if their parents get fined or not.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Either way, the only way to force student compliance in many cases is to fine the parents.

Parents can already be fined for some offenses by their children IIRC.

What if the parents are teachers? Who do we blame then?

 

[Dayton3]

Either way, the only way to force student compliance in many cases is to fine the parents.

Parents can already be fined for some offenses by their children IIRC.

What if the parents are teachers? Who do we blame then?

Same policy applies.

In regards to truancy, assume a person is a parent first and a teacher second.

 

[Franklin]

I imagine the type of kid who misses THAT MUCH school isn't going to give a damn if their parents get fined or not.

True. I don't want to say some kids are lost causes. But some kids are lost causes.
Also, a kid showing up and just sitting through classes like a lump on a log isn't any good, either. A kid with good attendance who puts forth no effort is as bad as a truant. And, even a great teacher isn't going to motivate everyone.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Either way, the only way to force student compliance in many cases is to fine the parents.

Parents can already be fined for some offenses by their children IIRC.

What if the parents are teachers? Who do we blame then?

Same policy applies.

In regards to truancy, assume a person is a parent first and a teacher second.

They would have to be really terrible teachers, though. I mean, those teachers should have their licenses revoked. Perhaps even put on some kind of central registry - to keep them from teaching in the future.

 

[darthraidr]

here are my two ideas.
a. Hold back students that should be held back. Hold them back for years if needed. so you have a 16yr. old kid in 3rd grade... maybe that will wake him up to do better and motivate him to not be a failure... there is too much coddling of kids from failure. everyone is NOT a winner. failure should not be rewarded. if the kid feels bad that they got held back, good. they can work hard to change their situation. i have a feeling that peer pressure will kick in on those failing students and motivate them to keep up with their peers.

b. fire bad teachers. teachers seem to be given way too much slack. they hit tenured after a few years... they hate the idea of performance reviews (it seems)... wtf is with that? so you are locked into a job and have no performance review? what other job offers that? have the pricipals and ast. principals do yearly performance reviews of the teachers. of course then you get the lame argument, "but the principal has it in for me" or "we don't see eye to eye." welcome to the real world! not everyone gets along with their boss. but they still have performance reviews. and better it to be the principal than some generic panel of people. the principal should be interacting with the students, parents and teachers. they should have a decent idea of the pulse of the school and it's teachers. if a teacher gets bad marks one year, they get a year to get their act together. if they dont, they get fired. because after 2 years of bad teaching, you've negatively impacted a lot of students for a significant portion of their time at that school.

 

[Dayton3]

What if the parents are teachers? Who do we blame then?

Same policy applies.

In regards to truancy, assume a person is a parent first and a teacher second.

They would have to be really terrible teachers, though. I mean, those teachers should have their licenses revoked. Perhaps even put on some kind of central registry - to keep them from teaching in the future.

Fine with me.

And I don't know how they do it in other states, but in Arkansas, firing teachers is not difficult at all. Basically all it takes is the school board voting to do so regardless of how long they have been at a school.

Teachers of course can get a lawyer and appeal but unless the school board has no reason whatsoever, the teachers can usually be fired.