News How Star Trek: Discovery Reinvented the Klingons.

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by PiotrB, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. PiotrB

    PiotrB Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Interesting information from Mark Worthington on how this race was reinvented:
    Full link: https://comicbook.com/startrek/2019...lingons-reinvented-designer-mark-worthington/

    The phone conversation from which the quoted fragment comes shows what the original vision might have been. It is a pity that Fuller was not able to fully realize it.
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I really like this perspective and wanting to expand upon the Klingons appeals to me.
     
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  3. pst

    pst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    a lot of us (including me) were distracted by the jarring visual change to the klingons in discovery, we missed all the thought and care that went into making them a realistic, diverse, fully formed culture. if you can get past the lack of self contained episodes, it's one of the many aspects of discovery that gets better upon rewatching the show.
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    For me, the jarring was actually helpful for the engagement. Instead of writing it off as "Just another Klingon" I was like "Hey, those are not the Klingons I'm used to." So, it gave me some pause and willingness to really pay attention to what the Klingons were doing rather than just writing it off as something I've seen before.

    I'm sure that's not everyone's experience but the jarring experience was actually helpful for me.
     
  5. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    I was OK with S1 Klingons and thought about a storyline where the 24 warring “orthodox” houses would eventually be displaced by an invasion of united TOS Klingons, temporarily displaced from Kronos after their forehead experience (which I don’t imagine affected this group). Remember, even if DSC only follows story canon (which some on this forum claim to be paramount), the forehead change is now a part of the story, so the S2 backpedaling doesn’t really give us more than further insight into this “orthodox” culture. How do we get from there to Kor?
     
  6. Jadeb

    Jadeb Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The reinvention of the Klingons was like a lot of stuff in Discovery: a good idea not executed terribly well.
     
  7. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That is an interesting look at the thought process behind the DISCO Klingons. Thanks to the OP for posting. I think Worthington and Fuller had some neat ideas when it came to the Klingons, though I do wish they had taken these concepts and used them for a new species or one with less screen time and development than the Klingons. By the time of Discovery we had seen a lot more of Klingon culture and learned more of its history. If DISCO was following TOS then okay, I could see where you could do some of these reinvention, because there was a lot of room there, but not after several series and movies, not to mention the ancillary (albeit non-canon) material that had done a good job of establishing Klingon culture and their aesthetic.

    I do think the designs for the DISCO Klingons are very well done, but they were too different for me to fully buy them as "Klingon" based on the other shows and movies. It was too much of a divergence, and it became distracting. It invited questions about canonicity more so than making the Klingons more 'alien'. Outside of appearance the DISCO Klingons weren't that different in behavior and attitude than the post-TOS Klingons.

    Looking back, I wish they had just taken these concepts, and used them for a brand new race, or maybe bring in the Kzinti. Leaving the Klingons alone and focusing on an new enemy, would've cut down on some of the howling about DISCO's treatment of canon. Despite ENT's faults, which were quite a few, they did create the Xindi, Suliban, and Sphere-Builders, which gave them a lot of new characters to play with and not screw up canon; perhaps they had been burned by the reaction to "Broken Bow", but still, I think it was a good way to go. When I think about it, each live-action series created new enemies that became important to the franchise except DISCO so far. (I've only seen the first episode of Season 2, but from what I've heard about the season I'm not
    putting the Baul in that category, and Control is derivative of Section 31
    ). To be fair, the other shows have also expanded on more established enemies as well, and that is what DISCO attempted to do. I just think the ambition was too great to want to tinker with a species that was very well-established. There's little known about the Sheliak and Tholians, and both by their biology-or what passes for biology-are very alien, more than the Klingons, Romulans, or most Trek species.
     
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  8. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I guessing that might have been because of Fuller's departure. They probably fell back what was 'safe'.
     
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  9. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I had no problems with the redesign of the Klingons in principle. Some of the visuals were too ornate, perhaps, but appearing different didn't bother me. What drove me mad was that they seemed to have a linguistic acuity lower than cavemen. It took them forever to bark out a complete thought. Scenes between Klingons were painfully slow.

    BTW, originally the Klingons were an analogy for the Chinese, at least in their first episode (check out Kor).
     
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  10. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    From what I've read and seen RE: Bryan Fuller; I'd say the opposite is true (IE - The Klingons would have been 'worse' in terms of 'canon fandom' reacting to them, etc. Not better. I get the impression Fuller really wanted to turn everything we thought we knew about Star Trek upside down over multiple eras - if the suits had okayed his original 'multi-era' pitch. Also given the turmoil he caused WRT what he did for 'American Gods', and nearly killed Season 2 of that show before it started - I'm glad he left the Star Trek production scene myself).

    YMMV of course. (And that's a funny thing when someone leaves a production in process and if you get fans who don't care for what transpired, they project their issues with said production and think - "Well if X handed left, this would all have probably turned out SO MUCH BETTER.")
     
  11. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Huh? I'm saying Bryan Fuller's departure might have been the reason why the Klingons acted more like TNG/DS9 Klingons. They didn't use his ideas.
     
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  12. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks for the link!

    But quite honestly? What a bunch of bullshit!
    This guy left with the end of season 1? Good riddance! This has to be some of the stupidest things I've ever read about designing an alien species! No wonder the result was absolutey fucking abysimal and needed to be re-worked for the second season.

    The Klingons moved to space-faring technology directly from the middle ages, without a period of enlightenment that brought... you... science? And technology? That is needed for space traveling? Also, as a sign of them being "middle ages" - he used the design language of GOTHIC CATHEDRALS? To show "middle ages"? This guy knows jack-shit about history! And even less about technology.

    But the most stupid part has to be his intelligent design bullshit explanation for them being a warriour race. You know, instead of it being a cultural thing - that a space-faring race comes up to - it's now a genetic thing? An evolutionary trait?
    Holy fucking shit, this has to be the dumbest asshole to ever work on a legitimate science fiction show!

    Where the fuck did they dig this guy up? This "research" would be laughable for an interview! This guy based a YEAR's design work on looking at images on the internet! And apparently not even from wikipedia, because then he would have actually learned a bit about the stuff he's talking about!
     
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Nah, I've heard far worse from TOS and TMP BTS :D
     
  14. Norsehound

    Norsehound Commander Red Shirt

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    I loved the season 1 take on the Klingons, mostly because I'm really tired of the next gen take on them. Disappointed in the hard reversion for season 2.
     
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  15. Delta Vega

    Delta Vega Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think that Discovery made the Klingons interesting again
    I used to hate Klingon episodes in previous franchises of Trek, apart from TOS of course
     
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  16. Cake

    Cake Captain Captain

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    DIS Klingons were the worst Klingons in Star Trek so far. They someone managed to make them even worse than TNG/DS9 and those were already horrible with their honor spouting and totally cliche brute look and behaviour.
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know how you get worst than the monoculture Klingons of TNG/DS9 and even VOY at times. Even ENT did better at times.

    DSC's execution with the Klingons may have been uneven but it got me invested in Klingons, something painfully hard to do after TNG/DS9.
     
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  18. Norsehound

    Norsehound Commander Red Shirt

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    The Season 1 Klingons were interesting. There were many reasons for this- all involving Discovery's sheer amount of effort they put into their production. The Klingon dialogue was entirely Klingon. They pushed the costumes to a degree we've never seen before. Instead of playing out the tired rusty/industrial look to the Klingons in effect since Trek 3, they gave us something ornate and different.

    I figure if you're going to hard-avert the TOS klingons, go big. Which is exactly what Discovery did- to the limit of being humanoid.

    Then fans complained, saying these aren't "real" klingons, and production gave them hair back and made them obsessed with Honor and glory and death in battle. I say if they were going to give us real klingons, look at Colicos/Ansara's performances from TOS. TNG klinks replace subtle menace with boisterous bluster, and it's annoying. If Klinks are going to change with every generation, they're due for a rotation.

    I'm so done with TNG's version of, well, everything.
     
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  19. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Eh? Other than the hair, some of that was still in Season 1.
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly.