How similar was the post atomic horror to Threads(1984)

[Garak234]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Here’s the link if you haven’t seen it but there are probably a few British Trekkies who have seen Threads as well.
Star Trek Enterpise takes place closest to the ww3 era so I’m posting it here. Threads in sum is the most realistic docu drama on the long term effects of nuclear war. Threads sees the destruction of most technology, the death of most of the English population, and the collapse of society. Something that’s different from the depictions of the post atomic horror during which Zephrame Cochran developed the warp drive. My question is how much things from threads happened in the Star Trek universe during the post atomic horrors and how did things diverge?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Welcome to the Enterprise forum, Garak234. So glad to see you posting! But since this is a discussion board, it would really help bring in other members to the discussion if you would do more than just post a video. Let us know a little more, such as how it relates to Enterprise, and why you're posting it.

So...tell us, why have you posted this video here in the ENT forum?

 

[Orac]

I remember being shown that mini series in school to prepare our young minds for the inevitable nuclear apocalypse.

I shall contribute to this conversation with some ill-informed speculation about potential historical divergence.. There didn't seem to be any signs of radiation sickness among Zephram Cochrane and his friends in Star Trek VIII so perhaps the fictional drug Hyronalin used by Bones to counter the effects of radiation poisoning on Star Trek had already been discovered in North America in the early 21st century.

FYI - I cannot see the embedded youtube video but a video is unavailable message instead.

 

[Garak234]

I remember being shown that mini series in school to prepare our young minds for the inevitable nuclear apocalypse.

I shall contribute to this conversation with some ill-informed speculation about potential historical divergence.. There didn't seem to be any signs of radiation sickness among Zephram Cochrane and his friends in Star Trek VIII so perhaps the fictional drug Hyronalin used by Bones to counter the effects of radiation poisoning on Star Trek had already been discovered in North America in the early 21st century.

FYI - I cannot see the embedded youtube video but a video is unavailable message instead.

The threads link isn’t showing any problems with me but here’s an Internet archive link https://archive.org/details/threads_201712

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Every time the question of Trek's WW III comes up, I always say the same thing, so I'll say it again here:

The Vulcans must have helped in the cleanup and rebuilding after the war. Otherwise there's not a chance in hell that Earth could have recovered so quickly.

I mean, there's a nuclear war in 2053, and a hundred years later, it's like nothing ever happened? Nuh-uh. Not buying it. Earth MUST have had help.

Then again, perhaps the war wasn't as bad as everyone assumes a third world war must be? In ST:FC, Riker said there were "very few governments left". He didn't say there were NO governments left, just "very few". And we know the USA was one of these, since in an early TNG ep, there is a US flag with 52 stars, which is said to come from 2033 to 2079. And since the war took place in '53...

 

[Orac]

The threads link isn’t showing any problems with me but here’s an Internet archive link https://archive.org/details/threads_201712

It's probbly geo-blocked (I'm in NZ) The Internet Archive link works for me though, thanks.

 

[Garak234]

It's probbly geo-blocked (I'm in NZ) The Internet Archive link works for me though, thanks.

I heard advice in a YouTube review stating that when watching threads you should watch in the daytime, eat food during and after watching and watch while another person is in the room. This avoids interference from threads with your sleep.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Then again, perhaps the war wasn't as bad as everyone assumes a third world war must be? In ST:FC, Riker said there were "very few governments left". He didn't say there were NO governments left, just "very few". And we know the USA was one of these, since in an early TNG ep, there is a US flag with 52 stars, which is said to come from 2033 to 2079. And since the war took place in '53...

Several nations in the Americas are referred to as still existing in the series (America (at least until 2079), Canada, Mexico, Jamaica, Cuba, Venezuela (which took over Panama apparently by the 2150s), Columbia, and Brazil.

Britain existed into the 2060 and is referred to as Old Britain in TOS.

Japan, Australia, and Singapore exists into the future, and Tibet is referenced independent of China. That’s 15 governments about of 204, so would count as very few.

All the other nations seemed to have been gobbled up by supranational entities like the European Hegemony (i.e. Norway and France) and United States of Africa/ African Confederation (i.e.. Somalia) over the next few centuries. Or might not exist anymore as we also never hear anything about China, the Koreas, Southeast Asia (aside from a mention of Vietnamese pork) or the Middle East.

Its safe to say that Europe and Asia got the worst of the nuclear exchange in Star Trek’s version of WWIII.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Its say to say that Europe and Asia got the worst of the nuclear exchange in Star Trek’s version of WWIII.

According to the audio commentary on the ST:FC DVD, all references to the Eastern Coalition (ECON) were supposed to be China. They changed it at the last minute.

So assuming the ECON is China, or centered around it (and that the courtroom scene in "Encounter at Farpoint" was an ECON court), I find it very likely that they got the worst of it in the war.

 

[Vger23]

Very similar.

But also very different.

 

[Orphalesion]

I remember being shown that mini series in school to prepare our young minds for the inevitable nuclear apocalypse.

I shall contribute to this conversation with some ill-informed speculation about potential historical divergence.. There didn't seem to be any signs of radiation sickness among Zephram Cochrane and his friends in Star Trek VIII so perhaps the fictional drug Hyronalin used by Bones to counter the effects of radiation poisoning on Star Trek had already been discovered in North America in the early 21st century.

From what I remember the location of Zephram's shanty Town seemed very remote. It's possible there was little radiation in the area.
We also don't know how many people they might already have lost to radiation sickness or the long-term after effects of it.

Every time the question of Trek's WW III comes up, I always say the same thing, so I'll say it again here:

The Vulcans must have helped in the cleanup and rebuilding after the war. Otherwise there's not a chance in hell that Earth could have recovered so quickly.

I mean, there's a nuclear war in 2053, and a hundred years later, it's like nothing ever happened? Nuh-uh. Not buying it. Earth MUST have had help.

Uh... Is that even disputed? I mean it seemed pretty clear in early Enterprise that the Vulcans had helped and became something like custodians to the humans in the process.

 

[FederationHistorian]

From what I remember the location of Zephram's shanty Town seemed very remote. It's possible there was little radiation in the area.

Bozeman, Montana is a small town itself and far from major cities. The shanty town would be needed for building the Phoenix.

We also don't know how many people they might already have lost to radiation sickness or the long-term after effects of it.

Or if they encountered any of Colonel Green's supporters when he was euthanizing those with radiation sickness.

And on a global level, on top of concerns of radiation sickness, if any developing or underdeveloped nations were still dependent on foreign aid at the time prior to the nuclear exchange. I’d imagine there’d be a great deal of turmoil in those countries once the aid stopped flowing and they had to contend with natural disasters and famines on their own. And that's before the post atomic horror courts get set up.

But America recovered and still existed by the early 22nd century; if Mestral lived until the early 22nd century and witnessed 30 Presidents starting from the 34th President, Dwight Eisenhower, then the 64th President would have been in office by the early 22nd century if all Presidents post-2021 served a full term and a few of them served two terms.

 

[Vger23]

I have to be honest....the whole idea of Earth engaging in a nuclear war and then needing the help of aliens to fix everything and become a spacefaring species really kind of craps all over the "hopeful future of humanity" narrative Star Trek has often been so proudly anointed with.

 

[Orphalesion]

I have to be honest....the whole idea of Earth engaging in a nuclear war and then needing the help of aliens to fix everything and become a spacefaring species really kind of craps all over the "hopeful future of humanity" narrative Star Trek has often been so proudly anointed with.

I always thought they were trying to make a World War II parallel with it. Like World War II was the worst war that had ever happened up to that date, but in its wake a lot of positive changed happened across the globe, like the foundation of the UN and the fact that Europe, a continent that was constantly at war with itself for centuries becoming an incredibly peaceful place (like today Germany and France going to war with each other seems just as unlikely as cows suddenly starting to give wine instead of milk).
So I assume they wanted to paint World War III as one of the things that eventually made humanity forswear international war altogether.
And I don't see a problem with th Vulcans helping humanity along, the best people sometimes need help.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

t seemed pretty clear in early Enterprise that the Vulcans had helped and became something like custodians to the humans in the process.

The Vulcans were indeed holding Earth back, but they never said WHY. This is the most likely reason.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I have to be honest....the whole idea of Earth engaging in a nuclear war and then needing the help of aliens to fix everything and become a spacefaring species really kind of craps all over the "hopeful future of humanity" narrative Star Trek has often been so proudly anointed with.

I don't see any other way to recover from a nuclear war.

World War II, for example, was different, because the rest of the world still had a functioning infrastructure which they could use to provide aid to stricken nations.

A third world war, though...that's another thing entirely. You can't rebuild if there's nothing left to rebuild WITH.

 

[Orphalesion]

A third world war, though...that's another thing entirely. You can't rebuild if there's nothing left to rebuild WITH.

I can't exactly remember the details but when this was discussed in another thread here the number of people killed in World War III, as stated in FT (I believe) only amounted to about (I think) a third of the Urban Population today. So in my opinion (knowing very little about war and its logistics) that sounds rather low for a world-wide Nuclear War and sounds very much like some parts of Earth must have been less devastated than whichever the main theatres turned out to be. I mean assuming that as leader of EastCon at least one of China's Mega Cities was wiped out, that would already account for a good portion of the number stated in FT.
If the number of people Colonel Green killed is included in the number stated in FT then the war itself killed even less people.

 

[FederationHistorian]

A third world war, though...that's another thing entirely. You can't rebuild if there's nothing left to rebuild WITH.

I think the point made is that the conventional war was much more devastating, and the nuclear exchange is when everyone pumped the breaks on the conflict.

100 small nukes like used in WW2 would result in 10M deaths. While 5 modern nukes cause nuclear autumn and 10 modern nukes cause nuclear winter. Although I don’t know what that means when “clean” nukes are supposedly in development in reality.

Logistics don’t really add up. 500M causalities would have had to come from the 25+ years of conflict. And quite a few megacities had to have been completely destroyed over the course of the conflict before the nuclear exchange.

 

[Tenacity]

The Vulcans must have helped in the cleanup and rebuilding after the war.

The fact that the Vulcans (per their ambassador) are surprised that Humanity recover so quickly from the war would indicate that they had little to do with Earth's recovery.

Why be surprised if most of the recovery was their own doing?

10 modern nukes cause nuclear winter

Nicely counter-acting climate warming, which might explain why there's no mention of such in Trek .

I think the point made is that the conventional war was much more devastating, and the nuclear exchange is when everyone pumped the breaks on the conflict.

Or the opposite. Little conventional warfare, with nukes taking out a few dozen high population density targets. 600 million died in big cities, but to a large extent smaller and medium sized communities and vast farmland areas are untouched.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Why be surprised if most of the recovery was their own doing?

Remember the original post of this very thread, Have you seen Threads? How the hell could Earth possibly recover from something like that?

Like I said: You cannot rebuild if there is nothing left to rebuild with. Simple as that. When the entire world's infrastructure has been destroyed...where do you go from there?