How should Neelix have left ship?

[BigJake]

Perhaps you can only understand sexuality through a binary system of insipid sexuality which exists opposite one filled with full blown pick-up artists and moustache twirling Dickens characters?

Actually I understand sexuality solely through the aid of a refitted storefront mannequin taken from the broken, smoking wreckage of an abandoned Sears and the copious Historical Documents of the Vivid Video Corporation, so naturally I can't possibly appreciate how wonderful and fluid it must be for an honorary Deltan like yourself. Nevertheless I do know enough about how stories work and how many possible explanations there are for developments therein to be able to wonder about why someone would fixate -- in Vivid fashion, as it were -- on sexual explanations that appear largely superfluous.

For example I have heard tell that Voyager was what Normals call a "PG" show, which tend to be prudish about sex generally and rarely focus on "sexual heat" between regular characters. So it would not naturally occur to most viewers to wonder whether Kes' and Neelix's apparent lack of a Siriusly Freaky Sex Life must have meant that no sex was happening or that it must have been insipid and "infantile" (?!) if it was; indeed it's pretty normal, I'm told, to take PG shows to be agnostic about such questions unless they explicitly tell you something.

Of course it could be the truth was just lying there, waiting to be discovered by a Multi-Dimensional Sex God. It's just not the first explanation I'm running with, I'm sure you understand.

And if it had been a male only Takaxian colony?

Then clearly he would have been discovering his latent bisexuality, obviously, since characters only do anything for sexual reasons?

 

[hux]

why someone would fixate -- in Vivid fashion, as it were -- on sexual explanations that appear largely superfluous.

For example I have heard tell that Voyager was what Normals call a "PG" show, which tend to be prudish about sex generally and rarely focus on "sexual heat" between regular characters. So it would not naturally occur to most viewers to wonder whether Kes' and Neelix's apparent lack of a Siriusly Freaky Sex Life must have meant that no sex was happening or that it must have been insipid and "infantile" (?!) if it was; indeed it's pretty normal, I'm told, to take PG shows to be agnostic about such questions unless they explicitly tell you something.

Then, prey tell, did one not comprehend the delectable visage once offered so fugaciously upon your eyes in the episode mentioned already (thy should have gone to specsavers) regarding such eminent players as Neelix (he of the aforementioned Talaxians) and the female known herein as "the Klingon", for it was most blatant to the conceptual gaze of a person without branches growing where the sun doth not shine.

PG or not, their passion was unashamedly bracing to witness and demonstrably understood by those with relentless grey matter.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIbVuWSIPfA[/yt]

Then clearly he would have been discovering his latent bisexuality, obviously, since characters only do anything for sexual reasons?

Straw - and may I most respectably proffer - man. I shall see you on the hustings.

 

[BigJake]

[in re: Neelix and the Klingon babe]

Just looks like the standard-issue "Klingon sex is rough cuz they be Warriors" joke Trek had been doing forever at that point, which I've never taken as an indicator that nobody else in the Trekverse was having good sex, so no, I don't feel like it's relevant.

Straw - and may I most respectably proffer - man. I shall see you on the hustings.

So be it! It may well be that your last vision in this life shall be the twirling of my luxuriant moustache.

I almost envy you.

 

[hux]

Can't find a clip but the "Darkling" episode where Kes flirts with Zahir is another piece of evidence for the prosecution. She never demonstrated chemistry like that with Neelix.

If it's a sexual relationship, then it's creepy and sinister (I mean, it's creepy and sinister without the sex but you know, more so)

I actually do have a twirly moustache (over a beard) so it would be the last thing either of us would see. I envy the bystanders.

 

[Kilana2]

Can't find a clip but the "Darkling" episode where Kes flirts with Zahir is another piece of evidence for the prosecution. She never demonstrated chemistry like that with Neelix.

If it's a sexual relationship, then it's creepy and sinister (I mean, it's creepy and sinister without the sex but you know, more so)

I actually do have a twirly moustache (over a beard) so it would be the last thing either of us would see. I envy the bystanders.

Celebrity death match aka Promi Boxen (celebrity boxing) or Tsunkatse

 

[BigJake]

I actually do have a twirly moustache (over a beard) so it would be the last thing either of us would see. I envy the bystanders.

That's the spirit!

(Note to self: purchase moustache wax.)

Honestly, I don't recollect "Darkling" as such, but again I would be wary of reading too much into any sexual overtones in its story. One of the standard ways that Trek told you something or someone was Evil or Wrong in some way, or was succumbing to Evil, was to overtly and aggressively sex them up. (Cf. just about every Mirror Universe story.) This wasn't a commentary on whether all the other sex happening in the galaxy was insipid or not, it was just a convenient shorthand for There Is Something Villainous Here.

 

[Kemaiku]

A retroactive causality whereby he never came aboard in the first place.

 

[hux]

Zahir was actually a good guy (though annoying). That story was more about Kes breaking away from Neelix.

"Elogium" is another episode that demonstrates the sexless nature of their relationship. It isn't actually said but it's presented as though it will be the first time they have sex if Kes wants to have a child due to a premature elogium.

NEELIX: Are you saying that unless you conceive now, you'll never be able to?
KES: Yes. And I need you to help me decide, because I would want you to mate with me.
NEELIX: Oh. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm honoured, but are you entirely certain it would be safe?

Odd language for a couple already having sex; "mate with me" rather than....."I would want you to be the father."

 

[BigJake]

Odd language for a couple already having sex; "mate with me" rather than....."I would want you to be the father."

The Ocampa were supposed to have a mating ritual that differed radically from plain old human(oid) sex, which I'm pretty sure is what she's referring to there. So no, I wouldn't take it as an implication that they weren't having sex; just that whatever sex they were having wasn't in the context of the elogium or whatever it was called. (The Vulcans by similar token have pon farr but pretty clearly have a sexuality outside it.)

I get that meta-textually there are reasons why the Kes-Neelix relationship annoys people or seems to have no chemistry: for some it seems to be the problem of pairing a short, dumpy not-traditionally-handsome actor with Jennifer Lien; for others that the Neelix character was simply annoying, the Snarf or Orko of his cast, and imagining him sexually was just not their thing. But there's no huge flag for such speculation in the episodes as they actually exist.

 

[Kilana2]

I get that meta-textually there are reasons why the Kes-Neelix relationship annoys people or seems to have no chemistry: for some it seems to be the problem of pairing a short, dumpy not-traditionally-handsome actor with Jennifer Lien; for others that the Neelix character was simply annoying, the Snarf or Orko of his cast, and imagining him sexually was just not their thing. But there's no huge flag for such speculation in the episodes as they actually exist.

Whoever tries to imply that only handsome people have sex is very much on the wrong track: humankind would be on the brink of extinction. (Says the right person, who was cloned)

 

[hux]

The only evidence I see for a sexual relationship, is the fact that they are a "couple" as defined by conventional human criteria. But that doesn't mean it actually is a conventional human-like relationship. They're both aliens of which we know little and there's far more evidence throughout the show that suggests their relationship is sexless than there is evidence to suggest the opposite.

This is further supported by their developing characters once they're finally separated from one another. He's an avuncular father figure to her from the off and she's presented as an innocent. They both acquired more adult persona's after this. It isn't definitive but I will always believe that it was non-sexual. It was a relief to see a sexual side to Neelix and his relationship with the Kilingon was actually one where he actively did the pursuing. A side to him we hadn't ever seen.

Kes was a tricky character to pull off based on the age thing (is she a child?). I think they were conscious of that at the beginning.

 

[Lynx]

I think that too many people are looking at numbers here.

Kes's "real age" when she met Neelix was more like 18-19. Neelix was born 8 February 2337 (Stardate 14104.14) so he was 34 years when they met. A certain difference in age but not that much.

Not to mention that the 9-year life span was utterly silly. It didn't work and created more problems when it come to writing than achieving anything.

As for the relatioship between them, it was like this: Kes had lived in that underground cave in that rather dull society. Then she went away of her own because she wanted to see how it was up at the surface and was abducted by the Kazon.

Then Neelix shows up and tells her that he's gonna rescue her. Which he did with the help of the Voyager crew. I guess she muts hav thought that he was the most wonderful and brave person that ever existed.

Then she ends up on Voyager and start to discover a lot of interesting things. She meet a lot of interesting people too and slowly realizes that Neelix actually isn't what she thought he was. Instead he's a jealous control freak.

So she starts to spend more time in sickbay and more time with other friends on the ship which doesn't please Neelix at all which we can see in certain episodes, especially "Parturition".

In the end they break up, that was inevitable since both of them started to develope in different directions as soon as they had settled in on Voyager.

The only thing which is annoying here is how the writers handled the break-up. It should have taken place earlier, in season 2 some time after "Parturition" and should have been explained and showed in two or three episodes as a subplot, like Jonas's dabblings with the Kazon which went on for some episodes.

Unfortunately, another example of sloppy writing. Not to mention that Braga and his gang never could write about emotions and relations between people. It was the same in TNG.

 

[Ithekro]

Surprised he left. I would have expected him to head for Klingon Space once they got back to the Federation.

 

[Kemaiku]

conventional human criteria

Annnnd you can stop right there.

This is an alien, in a form of long term mating with another alien. Humans are weird alien things in tight colour coded outfits that appeared out of nowhere one day to give them a lift for a while. And humans don't even make up all of Voyagers crew anyway, or the group it belongs to.

We don't get a say in it.

 

[Richard Baker]

I think he should have left with the Klingons in "Prophecy"- He could help them adjust to the Delta Quadrant and he obviously had a passionate connection.

Finding other Talaxians that far away was just too contrived.

 

[Lynx]

He should have stayed on the ship.

he often stated that he would remain loyal to Captain Janeway, that he wouldn't abandon her or the crew. He also made himself "Morale Officer". And then he let them all down like this!

Really bad writing which made him look like the ultimate jerk.

Not to mention that thing with the Talaxians on the asteroid. I mean it was thousands of light years from Talaxian space and their ships weren't as fast or advanced as Voyager. How did they get there? It's like I'm on an interesting journey on a ship which sails around the world. Then, when we arrive to a small science station at Antarctica, this small station happen to be inhabited with people from my home town! Then I decide to stay with them on their narrow iceberg instead of following the ship to a glorious haven somewhere not too far away.

Bad writing again!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Yep Kes and Neelix were totally NOT doing it. He doesn't even know about her big one time menstrual cycle until it happens! And I believe there is some line somewhere about them having separate quarters.

He was in love with her and he was very patiently waiting for her to be ready to make the relationship physical. She was his amazing little glow worm from under the ground and he got a lot emotionally out of being her caretaker. But of course once she was ready to grow up into a sexual relationship she had outgrown him, and being an Ocampa this all happened at lightening speed.

Neelix leaving to have children, family, purpose related to his own people.. this was the best possible ending for him. He was HAPPY. Why would anyone not want that for the character?

His people are scattered and suffering, being with them and raising a new generation with them is important in a way humans have the luxury of not needing to do. We can just mate with any freaky funtime alien and take up any other species culture for the thrill of it because nothing is at stake.

 

[Melakon]

I think in "Homestead" they were wanting to make it look like Neelix might eventually wind up as the leader of the colony. If they had bumped off that other guy, or done it as a two-parter or multi-episode mini-arc, maybe he would have.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Granted, the relationship had a creepy feel to it, but something seemed a little wrong about how Kes treated Neelix

She seemed to have flirted a little with Tom Paris at times, and then later just sort of dumped Neelix.

After that it was like she barely noticed him afterwards.

Although in Fury if you look at the ending scene where Kes is about to leave the ship, she takes a long look at Neelix before dematerializing.


I think the ending in Homestead was really underrated. Like the scene where Tuvok danced as a 'going away' gift.

Up until then we get that Tuvok was extremely annoyed just to be around him, and Neelix kept idolizing the guy.

They had that type of relationship throughout the show. It always seemed overlooked though.

 

[hux]

She seemed to have flirted a little with Tom Paris at times, and then later just sort of dumped Neelix.

That all made sense to me. She's exploring as she matures and part of that exploration includes flirting and a basic sexual awakening; something she clearly hasn't experienced with Neelix.

Their relationship was one of convenience for both of them. Sometimes you end up with people and it's just comfortable and safe. Those types of relationship are no more or less important than the ones filled with passion.

But it's definitely the case that both characters instantly improved and developed once they were separated (Neelix even became bearable). Had they separated them sooner, Kes might have progressed a lot more and even survived on the show.