How powerful are The Prophets exactly?

[FinalFrontier]

The Prophets seem like they are creatures that live in the 4th dimension, which is time. If this is the case, then these creatures would exist in all times at once, while us, being only in the third dimension, can only see a slice of time, giving us the perception of a distinct present. The Q live in the third dimension it seems, they have a distinct present and sense of time. I don't think they can really be compared, because how can you compare how the two of them work, any better than you could compare how us and a two dimensional creature do?

 

[thew40]

Q
Cytherians
Prophets
Organians
Species 8472
Borg
Dominion

The Cytherians? Really? Granted, it's been a while since I've seen "The Nth Degree," but they didn't really come across as more powerful than the Prophets or Organians.

I'd say the order goes like this, then:

Q
Organians
Prophets
Metrons
Thasians
Apollo
Cytherians/"God"
Sphere-Builders
Nacine

 

[Joel_Kirk]

^^

Just throwing this out there:

How about the Caelier...in regards to power? (For those familiar with the Destiny novels?)

 

[thew40]

^^

Just throwing this out there:

How about the Caelier...in regards to power? (For those familiar with the Destiny novels?)

I'd put them above the Nacine and the Sphere-Builders. Powerful, but no Organians or Q. Their strength was in their catoms.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

^^

I can agree with that...

 

[EnsignRicky]

That's like asking how powerful is God, the Vorlons or Captain Robau.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

The Prophets can be killed with a Chronoton beam. I'd say they're pretty weak.

 

[JustKate]

Again, I have to say that I cannot comprehend how entitities who don't experience time can be "killed." Maybe I just don't have a good enough imagination, but it seems to be that if for you there is no future, how can there be a future in which you have ceased to exist?

And even if you can die, if for you all is the present, since there is no past, present or future, why wouldn't you take actions to avoid the danger?

So I'm still left with "I don't know."

 

[Sci]

The Prophets can be killed with a Chronoton beam. I'd say they're pretty weak.

Why does susceptibility to death equal being "pretty weak" -- especially since there isn't a single creature in Trek, Q included, who can't be killed by humans wielding the right weapons?

 

[FordSVT]

Further, we saw in "The Q and the Grey" that humanoids are capable of wielding weapons against the Q, and that a Federation starship is capable of penetrating the Q Continuum.

Yes, but they're only capable with the intervention of the Q. The weapons were created by the Q, more representations than anything else, just like the rest of what they experienced in the continuum; it's only a bit different from the time Q gave Riker powers when you think about it. They were only able to enter Q space because of the rifts the Q created in the supernova. So really there's no evidence to suggest that humans are capable on their own of entering the continuum or creating weapons capable of harming the Q, and I think that's an important distinction to make.

On the series at least, the only beings capable of harming the Q directly or indirectly are the Q. In the novels there are other "letter" beings, one of whom is above and beyond even what the Q can comprehend.

More on topic, you're arguing at once that there is no evidence to suggest that the Prophets are limited by their powers and no evidence to suggest that the power of the Q is as unlimited as they claim. Fair enough, what you're saying basically means that you think they're both so powerful compared to us there's no practical difference.

However, we have seen what these beings have done on the TV series, and based on that evidence alone the Q are much more powerful.

 

[Sci]

Further, we saw in "The Q and the Grey" that humanoids are capable of wielding weapons against the Q, and that a Federation starship is capable of penetrating the Q Continuum.

Yes, but they're only capable with the intervention of the Q. The weapons were created by the Q, more representations than anything else, just like the rest of what they experienced in the continuum;

We don't know that. We know that the Female Q was creating the illusion of a Human gun when the Voyager crew were wielding the Q weapons, but that doesn't mean that the weapons they were using were actually ones that humanoids are incapable of building or comprehending -- that just means that the Female Q was keeping them from knowing what they we wielding.

They were only able to enter Q space because of the rifts the Q created in the supernova.

But that automatically means that Federation starships are capable of analyzing and re-creating those same pathways to the Continuum.

More on topic, you're arguing at once that there is no evidence to suggest that the Prophets are limited by their powers and no evidence to suggest that the power of the Q is as unlimited as they claim.

More like, there's no evidence that the Prophets aren't Q-level in power, and no evidence that the Q are omnipotent.

 

[FordSVT]

More like, there's no evidence that the Prophets aren't Q-level in power, and no evidence that the Q are omnipotent.

That's what we call trying to prove a negative, and it's an unreasonable position to take.

I never said that the Q were omnipotent, but they don't have to be because they've clearly demonstrated abilities beyond what the Prophets have. Clearly.

And heck, at least the Q have a grasp of both linear and non-linear time, the prophets were clueless. They didn't even understand the concept of mortality. They either didn't have the will or the capability to influence events much outside their own frame of existence. They required or desired mortal intervention in order to act. Both the pah wraith and the prophets displayed a variety of weaknesses.

 

[JustKate]

^ In what way is an inability to grasp the concept of linear time a "weakness"? It would be a weakness if you have to live a linear existence, but if you don't, how is it a weakness?

 

[Sci]

More like, there's no evidence that the Prophets aren't Q-level in power, and no evidence that the Q are omnipotent.

That's what we call trying to prove a negative, and it's an unreasonable position to take.

I never said that the Q were omnipotent, but they don't have to be because they've clearly demonstrated abilities beyond what the Prophets have. Clearly.

I don't think we know enough about the Prophets to say that that's clear at all. Clearly, the Q have demonstrated powers that the Prophets have not demonstrated -- but the Prophets have also demonstrated in the past that they are more powerful than we've previously believed.

I'm not saying that the Prophets are Q-level in power -- but I am saying that we shouldn't presume they aren't.

 

[JustKate]

We just don't have enough data. I think that's what Sci is saying, and I agree.

 

[FordSVT]

We just don't have enough data. I think that's what Sci is saying, and I agree.

And that's fine, I said as much. However, we don't have enough data about a lot of things Trek-related but we conjecture based on the available evidence. If this was a scientific inquiry, based on the available evidence, the Q are demonstrably more powerful. You can't say, "Just because we haven't seen polar bears levitate doesn't mean it's impossible."

^ In what way is an inability to grasp the concept of linear time a "weakness"? It would be a weakness if you have to live a linear existence, but if you don't, how is it a weakness?

I didn't say it was a weakness directly, that statement was in a different sentence. But if you want a conversation, I'd say that information and understanding is power, and while they might live in their own little non-linear universe, they happened to be within and or surrounded by a very linear one that also happens to be able to influence them in certain ways.

 

[Damask]

I didn't say it was a weakness directly, that statement was in a different sentence. But if you want a conversation, I'd say that information and understanding is power, and while they might live in their own little non-linear universe, they happened to be within and or surrounded by a very linear one that also happens to be able to influence them in certain ways.

Not if they close the wormhole.

 

[I am not Spock]

I guess the Q not being omnipotent makes sense.

They're as far above humans as we are above a microbe or an amoeba. But its relative, isn't it? To a medieval, pre-warp race, humans must seem pretty godlike? Was it Arthur C Clarke that said 'advanced technology is like magic?'

 

[JustKate]

We just don't have enough data. I think that's what Sci is saying, and I agree.

And that's fine, I said as much. However, we don't have enough data about a lot of things Trek-related but we conjecture based on the available evidence. If this was a scientific inquiry, based on the available evidence, the Q are demonstrably more powerful. You can't say, "Just because we haven't seen polar bears levitate doesn't mean it's impossible."

I do understand what you mean. But...

"Based on the available evidence" would be a lot more compelling if we had more evidence. We just don't have very much, and what we have leaves me very much in doubt. Apparently that's not the case with you. Which is fine, I just wanted you to know that I'm not ignoring what you're saying. You believe you have enough evidence to draw a conclusion; I believe that I do not.

In what way is an inability to grasp the concept of linear time a "weakness"? It would be a weakness if you have to live a linear existence, but if you don't, how is it a weakness?

I didn't say it was a weakness directly, that statement was in a different sentence. But if you want a conversation, I'd say that information and understanding is power, and while they might live in their own little non-linear universe, they happened to be within and or surrounded by a very linear one that also happens to be able to influence them in certain ways.

If it does influence them, you're right. I'm not sure it does, though - unless they want it to.

It's at least possible that we are surrounded by a non-linear universe of which we have no conception. This won't affect us...unless and until it starts to affect us.

P.S. DiaboliKate is me, by the way. It was my Halloween name, but I've reverted to my regular name now.