How much of early TNG was GR's?

[Warped9]

I'm not as up on TNG's backstory as TOS' but while listening to some recent podcasts and reading some articles I've gotten the impression that some of the things attributed to an ailing GR might not actually be his ideas.

In a lot of early TNG I can see ideas espoused by David Gerrold as far back as his writings in his book The World Of Star Trek published back in the '70s. Some ideas, and stories, from the aborted Phase II also made it into TNG.

More specifically I'm thinking of the ideas of technology unchained, technobabble, families aboard starships and not allowing conflict between the main characters. Were these ideas actually GR's or someone else's even though they are widely attributed to GR?

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Christopher]

More specifically I'm thinking of the ideas of technology unchained, technobabble, families aboard starships and not allowing conflict between the main characters. Were these ideas actually GR's or someone else's even though they are widely attributed to GR?

I think most of them were his, at least in the basics. They fit his utopian views of the future, and it meshes with what we're hearing in things like Shatner's Chaos on the Bridge. He wanted to present a vision of a better future and an evolved humanity, and he wanted to show technology in a plausible and optimistic way.

Also, we know a lot of it is his because it recycled ideas he'd used before. Picard, Riker, Troi, and Data were Kirk, Decker, Ilia, and Xon from Phase II in most every respect, though Data also brought in elements from The Questor Tapes. And Wesley was Roddenberry's self-insertion of his own younger self as he imagined it. I think Geordi was David Gerrold's creation, though. And was Bob Justman the one who wanted Worf?

 

[Warped9]

I thought a number of people wanted a Klingon on the Bridge. I was under the impression that perhaps Maizlish was distorting GR's ideas and wishes.

 

[BillJ]

I thought a number of people wanted a Klingon on the Bridge. I was under the impression that perhaps Maizlish was distorting GR's ideas and wishes.

I think it was Bob Justman that was responsible for Worf. But I'm not sure we'll ever really know how much of TNG was actually Roddenberry's. Though I think the first season plays closer to TOS than anything else.

 

[JesterFace]

I see TNG as created by Gene and then Piller took over on season 3 and made the show that it became.

 

[Christopher]

I thought a number of people wanted a Klingon on the Bridge. I was under the impression that perhaps Maizlish was distorting GR's ideas and wishes.

I think Maizlish and Richard Arnold filtered Roddenberry's wishes through their own perspectives, applying them in a more extreme or more simplistic way than GR would have in his prime; but the basic ideas were Roddenberry's. They're recognizably extensions of Roddenberry's earlier works and the attitudes and ideas he expressed over the years.

For instance, according to the new Chaos on the Bridge documentary (or according to reviews I've read of it, anyway), Maizlish applied GR's "no conflict" rule even more absolutely than GR himself wanted. I think GR's wish was to avoid petty conflict -- to have the characters be mature enough not to have the usual lazy soap-opera conflicts arising from petty jealousy, resentment, dishonesty, stupid misunderstandings, and the like, but instead to have conflicts with a meaningful basis, like sincere differences in values or different perspectives on ambiguous issues. But others applied the rule without that kind of nuance.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

For instance, according to the new Chaos on the Bridge documentary (or according to reviews I've read of it, anyway), Maizlish applied GR's "no conflict" rule even more absolutely than GR himself wanted. I think GR's wish was to avoid petty conflict -- to have the characters be mature enough not to have the usual lazy soap-opera conflicts arising from petty jealousy, resentment, dishonesty, stupid misunderstandings, and the like, but instead to have conflicts with a meaningful basis, like sincere differences in values or different perspectives on ambiguous issues. But others applied the rule without that kind of nuance.

Having watched the documentary, Maizlish apparently gave notes on scripts in Roddenberry's name. However, Maurice Hurley states he was bullish on enforcing the "no conflict" and other Roddenberry dictums more so than the Great Bird himself.

That said, I do agree with you that it was meant to avoid the petty, melodramatic conflicts.

 

[wulfio]

Ya I can't stand melodrama. Contemporary drama's make me nauseous.

Seasons 1 & 2 seem very TOS to me. 1 more so than 2. But with 2 still having that distinctly TOS tone that seasons 3 and on didn't have.

 

[Warped9]

Seasons 1 & 2 seem very TOS to me. 1 more so than 2. But with 2 still having that distinctly TOS tone that seasons 3 and on didn't have.

In the beginning I didn't care at all for TNG, but eventually as it progressed I began to find things I thought were okay. Over the years I managed to see every episode at least once or twice and managed one complete rewatch some years ago.

For some reason the early seasons appeal more to me than the later ones and that's while acknowledging the unevenness of the first two seasons. Season 2 might be my favourite TNG season overall partly because two of my favourite TNG episodes ("Measure Of A Man" and "Q, Who?") are of that season. And, yes, part of the appeal is that there is something of a TOS sensibility to those early seasons.

I don't know what it is. Perhaps some lingering influence of GR's and the initial creative staff. There's also something about the lighting that appeals to me.

After all is said and done most of the episodes I like are in Seasons 1-3 with the rest scattered throughout Seasons 4-7. But even while there are some good segments in Season 4 a sensibility was settling into the show that often made a lot of the series feel staid and bland to me.

The notion Maizlish was "misrepresenting" GR's ideas sounds plausible. It's also a pity he and GR alienated the original creative staff because it would have been interesting to have seen what the show might have been like with them guiding the series.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Though I think the first season plays closer to TOS than anything else.

I think that it depends what aspect you're looking at.

If you're talking about a recycled story idea ("The Naked Now") or stories that play similarly to TOS stories in broad strokes (e.g. "Home Soil"/"The Devil in the Dark"), then 1st season TNG is a lot like TOS.

But on the other hand, Picard hadn't evolved into Action Picard yet. Once Picard gets his Captain's prerogative uniform and jacket, and he starts getting into the thick of things more, Picard becomes more Kirk-like. That happens later in the series.

Also, the ship's phasers don't even fire* until "The Arsenal of Freedom" and they don't even hit anything. How TOS is that?!? They were already blowing up a potentially hostile space buoy in the first act or so of the first production TOS episode.

* - Not counting their use as an energy beam to feed the space jellyfish in "Encounter At Farpoint."

 

[wulfio]

He's talking about the story telling. Season 1 most closely resembles TOS.

 

[BillJ]

Though I think the first season plays closer to TOS than anything else.

I think that it depends what aspect you're looking at.

If you're talking about a recycled story idea ("The Naked Now") or stories that play similarly to TOS stories in broad strokes (e.g. "Home Soil"/"The Devil in the Dark"), then 1st season TNG is a lot like TOS.

But on the other hand, Picard hadn't evolved into Action Picard yet. Once Picard gets his Captain's prerogative uniform and jacket, and he starts getting into the thick of things more, Picard becomes more Kirk-like. That happens later in the series.

Also, the ship's phasers don't even fire* until "The Arsenal of Freedom" and they don't even hit anything. How TOS is that?!? They were already blowing up a potentially hostile space buoy in the first act or so of the first production TOS episode.

* - Not counting their use as an energy beam to feed the space jellyfish in "Encounter At Farpoint."

He's talking about the story telling. Season 1 most closely resembles TOS.

CorporalCaptain is right. There are some very obvious deviations from TOS.

 

[wulfio]

To each their own. When I watch season 1 I get a TOS vibe in the narrative. The story telling approach in seasons 1, and to a somewhat lesser extent, season 2 are very distinct from seasons 3 and on. I'm not talking about a captains uniform, or action sequences. I'm talking about narrative and theme.

 

[BillJ]

To each their own. When I watch season 1 I get a TOS vibe in the narrative. The story telling approach in seasons 1, and to a somewhat lesser extent, season 2 are very distinct from seasons 3 and on. I'm not talking about a captains uniform, or action sequences. I'm talking about narrative and theme.

I obviously get the same vibe. Just that there are differences there as well.

 

[wulfio]

agreed it has different elements for sure.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I wasn't discussing the Captain's uniform per se, just observing that adopting the jacket coincided with a shift in how Picard was involved in the story. Which involved changes in how story was approached. And, yes, I agree that there was a TOS vibe in the first season. But later seasons hew closer to TOS in different ways, is all. For a different example from later in the series, "Darmok" and "Arena" have a great deal in common.

 

[Ghrakh]

Obviously holodeck episodes count as well. But not just because it was a holodeck, but also for showing the day-to-day life aboard the ship which would be an integral part of many later episodes.

 

[wulfio]

I wasn't discussing the Captain's uniform per se, just observing that adopting the jacket coincided with a shift in how Picard was involved in the story. Which involved changes in how story was approached. And, yes, I agree that there was a TOS vibe in the first season. But later seasons hew closer to TOS in different ways, is all. For a different example from later in the series, "Darmok" and "Arena" have a great deal in common.

I think camp is also a big factor for me. In the later seasons of Trek I feel like we lost the type of camp we had in 60s/70s sci-fi.

 

[Warped9]

It wouldn't hold it against TNG for not making their versions of "A Piece Of The Action" and "I, Mudd." OTH they did make their Robin Hood and Worf in the wild west episodes.

 

[SPCTRE]

How do show/story bibles get made? Surely some of the TBBS industry people have some insight into that process. (Maurice? Dennis?)

How much of the TNG Writer/Director's Guide was created by GR?