I'm unable to recall this instance. The only incident that I recall was that Worf once overslept and was late to his duty shift, but Picard joked about "skipping the court-martial this time", rather than chewing him out.
How militarized should Starfleet be?
- Thread starter LobsterAfternoon
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I'm unable to recall this instance. The only incident that I recall was that Worf once overslept and was late to his duty shift, but Picard joked about "skipping the court-martial this time", rather than chewing him out.
Some thoughts:
"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat" - James T. Kirk (TOS: "Errand of Mercy") But, as TNG evolved, the writers had to remind themselves that the Officers aboard were essentially " Scientists, not soldiers".
I guess their Charter has a lot to do with how they are perceived and how they perceive themselves, Militarily: 5 year mission, to explore.....
Well- honestly, i'm hard put to think of soldiers who explore... So it's a conundrum, a paradox. Soldiers generally do not "explore", and Explorers are generally not "soldiers", tho they might be accompanied by some (as in the Military SEAL-ish guys on enterprise after the xindi attack); and explorers generally need to be able to defend themselves- tho anthropologists are more wont to immerse themselves peacefully into a new culture.
interesting topic.
"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat" - James T. Kirk (TOS: "Errand of Mercy") But, as TNG evolved, the writers had to remind themselves that the Officers aboard were essentially " Scientists, not soldiers".
I guess their Charter has a lot to do with how they are perceived and how they perceive themselves, Militarily: 5 year mission, to explore.....
Well- honestly, i'm hard put to think of soldiers who explore... So it's a conundrum, a paradox. Soldiers generally do not "explore", and Explorers are generally not "soldiers", tho they might be accompanied by some (as in the Military SEAL-ish guys on enterprise after the xindi attack); and explorers generally need to be able to defend themselves- tho anthropologists are more wont to immerse themselves peacefully into a new culture.
interesting topic.
Soldiers and sailors have explored in the past. Zebulon Pike lead twenty soldiers on an exploration of the Louisiana Purchase (the Pike Expedition), and Lewis and Clark were soldiers in the sense that they were veterans of war with the native Americans.
The US Navy was sent to explore and show the flag in the early 19th century, such as on the Wilkes expedition, which went as far south as the Antarctic coast. So it's not as odd as you think.
The US Navy was sent to explore and show the flag in the early 19th century, such as on the Wilkes expedition, which went as far south as the Antarctic coast. So it's not as odd as you think.
Some of the relief missions that we see the Enterprise on (delivering medical supplies, helping with infrastructure) has roots in our current military. Look at how the US military aided Pakistan after those mudslides a few years back.
"I DON'T want to see Trek do BSG."
Sonak: So Say We All!
This topic has me loopy. Starfleet Acadamy has me Loopy. it's a boarding school/ it's a college/it's a graduate school/ it has weird courses for 'enlisted' men like o'brien's temporal mechanics class...and military options like advanced tactical training.. but with no age minimums/maximums... what: like a Montessori school?
Sonak: So Say We All!
This topic has me loopy. Starfleet Acadamy has me Loopy. it's a boarding school/ it's a college/it's a graduate school/ it has weird courses for 'enlisted' men like o'brien's temporal mechanics class...and military options like advanced tactical training.. but with no age minimums/maximums... what: like a Montessori school?
It's the episode where Worf starts a fire in his quarters.
Think the British Navy of the 15th, 16th, 17th centuries. They defended their nation yes, but also engaged in world exploration, and defense of colonies, and protected trade.
During that time period, the British Navy also did not consider themselves "the military."
Often they were the same people.
Then they engaged in war games. Just another example of Picard being wrong when he opens his mouth.
Which is the miltary in the modern world (and the past). When there is a large natural disaster somewhere, among of the first people there are the military.
But which is the primary mission? Put it this way, if a ship is on a science mission, it will likely drop that in a hot second to perform a mission of defense. If a ship is on a active combat mission, unlikely they will abandon that to survey a new planet.
It would be like saying that the primary mission of the US military is training, because that's what they spend the most amount of time doing.
You would have to squint pretty hard to not see Starfleet as the Federation's uniformed armed forces.
You seem to use this a lot.
i stand corrected on the soldier/explorer thing.
Contemporary Astronauts, as i understand it, can be Scientists "trained" to do the job in space... Yes? But, originally, they were all Military.. mostly Pilots, if i recall... tho it's hardly the same skill set, these days.. {are scientists given a rank on board, say, the Int'l Space Station? or are they strictly Cilivilian? Wouldn't there have to be a ranking of sorts in case of a Catastrophe- who trumps who if so-and-so bites the dust? Would that rank transfer back to their Life On Earth?}
it's hard to see starfleet as anything BUT military given that it's organized Hierarchically and everyone has a military rank... don't they? But Professors and PhDs and MDs etc. are Addressed by Title? And Government officials? Wheres the overlap in Gov't & Starfleet? The President of the Federation doesn't need be Starfleet, right? My Knowledge of the Gov't of Earth & the Federation in the 22nd century and beyond is based only on Series and Movies... and not very complete, at that. Politics, Arggh!
Contemporary Astronauts, as i understand it, can be Scientists "trained" to do the job in space... Yes? But, originally, they were all Military.. mostly Pilots, if i recall... tho it's hardly the same skill set, these days.. {are scientists given a rank on board, say, the Int'l Space Station? or are they strictly Cilivilian? Wouldn't there have to be a ranking of sorts in case of a Catastrophe- who trumps who if so-and-so bites the dust? Would that rank transfer back to their Life On Earth?}
it's hard to see starfleet as anything BUT military given that it's organized Hierarchically and everyone has a military rank... don't they? But Professors and PhDs and MDs etc. are Addressed by Title? And Government officials? Wheres the overlap in Gov't & Starfleet? The President of the Federation doesn't need be Starfleet, right? My Knowledge of the Gov't of Earth & the Federation in the 22nd century and beyond is based only on Series and Movies... and not very complete, at that. Politics, Arggh!
I would think that are more serious Stargate SG-1 would be more like what Star Trek should aim for instead of NuBSG. I mean Stargate is about exploring the galaxy while Battlestar Galactica is about the last survivors of humanity on the run from killer robots that are relentlessly hunting them down like dogs.
I always saw starfleet then more than just a military force. I think that was what Riker meant when he said that a military organization. Kind of separating them from say the Klingons and Romulans that do have full time military organizations.
I do see starfleet as an evolution of the US Navy now, multipurpose. Able to defend the Federation but also provide exploration and humanitarian missions. On the ship, it would be a matter of commander's choice and style of leadership. Kirk is more direct and in an earlier time. He is still somewhat democratic and values Spock and Bone's info. Picard is a bit more democratic but there is less threats, at first, in the 24th century. Picard did have final say and could be very direct when he wanted to be. And as far as being a solider, I would not sleep on Picard, he proved he could throw down when needed.
I do see starfleet as an evolution of the US Navy now, multipurpose. Able to defend the Federation but also provide exploration and humanitarian missions. On the ship, it would be a matter of commander's choice and style of leadership. Kirk is more direct and in an earlier time. He is still somewhat democratic and values Spock and Bone's info. Picard is a bit more democratic but there is less threats, at first, in the 24th century. Picard did have final say and could be very direct when he wanted to be. And as far as being a solider, I would not sleep on Picard, he proved he could throw down when needed.
Killer Robots? Really? I would Characterize Ceylons {reimagined BSG} as AI at the one end of the Spectrum... but Definitely as Human in terms of the 'Human Condition' ... i think RDM was exploring the [range of] Inhumanity of People and the Humanity of AI in the series... an evolution of his earlier explorations with Data, the Borg, hugh, etc... We are but biological Machines, are we not?
Sorry, a bit off topic.
Sorry, a bit off topic.
I don't think there's any disputing that Starfleet is the military of the Federation. They waged war on behalf of the Federation against the Dominion, they have a rank structure, service academy, etc. Like a lot of Trek, Picard's random statement about Starfleet not being a military organization is a weird continuity error/writer boner that made it to air.
I don't think Picard's statements are continuity errors. They actually reflect what he wants Starfleet to be, not necessarily what it is.
Given that Picard also has an interest in archaeology, he's clearly interested in learning about the universe. He explores the past via archaeology and the present via a starship. He doesn't see himself as a soldier or a warrior, but that doesn't mean he's representative of the whole of Starfleet.
I imagine that most of Picard's career was spent exploring. He graduated in the late 2320s, but the first conflicts that we've heard of in that era were in the 2350s, the Cardassian border wars, in which he was at least briefly involved. So for most of his career he was occupied with exploring rather than fighting. That would leave a lasting impression on him, leading him to think of Starfleet as an exploratory organization.
Given that Picard also has an interest in archaeology, he's clearly interested in learning about the universe. He explores the past via archaeology and the present via a starship. He doesn't see himself as a soldier or a warrior, but that doesn't mean he's representative of the whole of Starfleet.
I imagine that most of Picard's career was spent exploring. He graduated in the late 2320s, but the first conflicts that we've heard of in that era were in the 2350s, the Cardassian border wars, in which he was at least briefly involved. So for most of his career he was occupied with exploring rather than fighting. That would leave a lasting impression on him, leading him to think of Starfleet as an exploratory organization.
Yes, Pavonis, i agree that one's Cultural Moment Informs one's Interpretation of one's Culture more heavily than doctrine or the Rhetoric. Experience is Everything...
I've always seen StarFleet as a Multi-Function organization
They're whatever they need to be when the mission calls for it.
Explorer / Military Force / Research Organization / Diplomatic Arm / Relief Group
They're flexible and can change on the fly to solve the current problem.
They're whatever they need to be when the mission calls for it.
Explorer / Military Force / Research Organization / Diplomatic Arm / Relief Group
They're flexible and can change on the fly to solve the current problem.
I'd build a few Yamato-class battleships from Star Fleet Command games. Have them patrol the core worlds, waiting for Borg or other invasion fleet. Leave the rest as it is.
Nope. Just nope. Read the "Hornblower" novels. Starfleet is part American Coast Guard, but mostly 18th century English navy, when captains were explorers, diplomats and even (kind of) representatives of commercial interests.
"Star Trek" is not war. When that does happen on-screen in the spin-offs, I very rapidly lose interest. If you want space battles, there are plenty of other shows. They are great; I hope you enjoy them. Instead, what made (and makes) Trek great is hope for the future. How can that possibly include a Starfleet constantly poised for battle? I resist and resent militaristic revisionism. Starfleet is the future NASA.
Salutes?
"Star Trek" is not war. When that does happen on-screen in the spin-offs, I very rapidly lose interest. If you want space battles, there are plenty of other shows. They are great; I hope you enjoy them. Instead, what made (and makes) Trek great is hope for the future. How can that possibly include a Starfleet constantly poised for battle? I resist and resent militaristic revisionism. Starfleet is the future NASA.
Salutes?
The Coast Guard or Nasa {ISA?} is a FANTASTIC analogy... Makes sense. Thanks.
I'm not a fan of war either, but they are part a defense organization as stated in the tech manuals and seen on screen. Even the original had Enterprise facing off against Romulans, Klingons, you can't deny that.
I read Hornblower "Beat to Quarters" novel and I remember a big battle towads the end of the novel against a Spanish ship of the line. I'm sure the Brits kept a fleet of ships of the line somewhere in the Channel to prevent invasion or conduct their own. That's why I said, I woudn't mind having a few battleships just patrolling in the core systems or even parked inside starbases, so that the business of exploring can continue.
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