How Messed Up is the Prime Directive?

[UssGlenn]

What's completely overlooked in that movie is that, while the planet is in Federation Space, it was settled by the Baku before the Federation was ever founded, let alone claimed that area, so the Prime Directive really should apply. Or at the very least, the only claim the Fed has on that planet is by right of conquest.

 

[Citiprime]

The trouble I have with the Prime Directive is that it's supposed to be the Federation's idea of the right thing to do. It's as close to morally correct as our culture can come up with. But nearly every time our heroes break it, that's presented as being the right thing to do. Episodes like Homeward don't actually agree with the Prime Directive, they're just using it for drama.

I actually disagree. I don't think "Homeward" necessarily agrees with the violation of the Prime Directive. Picard's attitude after Worf's brother does what he does is annoyed, and basically trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Moreover, I thought his final words to Crusher, where he laments Vorin's suicide and how he died alone and afraid, indicates Picard (or the narrative) doesn't see this exactly as a "win."

To me, the Prime Directive is a reflection of the Vietnam era and the anti-war position borne out of that which probably became even more dominant among people after the Iraq Wars and the War on Terror. That, even if you have the best of intentions, you CANNOT manipulate societies towards what you think is best for them without some sort of consequences, cost, or degree of suffering.

And even as the more dominant and technologically advanced culture, there are no guarantees that any of it will work. That, in the end, it may all blow up in your face and you may make things worse. Like Picard says in "Pen Pals," the Prime Directive not only protects alien cultures, but it's designed to protect the Federation from disasters.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What's completely overlooked in that movie is that, while the planet is in Federation Space, it was settled by the Baku before the Federation was ever founded, let alone claimed that area, so the Prime Directive really should apply. Or at the very least, the only claim the Fed has on that planet is by right of conquest.

Buoys.

It's not hard to mark you home zone with subspace radio signals, unless you don't want pirates to take everything.

 

[BillJ]

What's completely overlooked in that movie is that, while the planet is in Federation Space, it was settled by the Baku before the Federation was ever founded, let alone claimed that area, so the Prime Directive really should apply.

But, also warp capable. So, much of the Prime Directive wouldn’t apply anyway.

 

[Tallguy]

not according to the Federation Council

DOUGHERTY: I'm acting on orders from the Federation Council.
PICARD: How can there be an order to abandon the Prime Directive?
DOUGHERTY: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet.

Because they traveled there on their own. Even Picard acknowledged that when he apologized and said they would take their android and go.

Really, Forceful relocation? The PD is the most wishy washy rule ever.

I would think the Federation has more than one law.

This gets down to whose planet is it? Is this ever addressed in the film? I would think the Baaku traveled there before the Federation existed, right? So what does the Federation have to do with these people?

That's not Prime Directive, that's "this ain't your'n!"

What's completely overlooked in that movie is that, while the planet is in Federation Space, it was settled by the Baku before the Federation was ever founded, let alone claimed that area, so the Prime Directive really should apply. Or at the very least, the only claim the Fed has on that planet is by right of conquest.

Yeah, this.

 

[BillJ]

This gets down to whose planet is it? Is this ever addressed in the film? I would think the Baaku traveled there before the Federation existed, right? So what does the Federation have to do with these people?

The S’ona would likely have a claim on the planet, as well. Which means the Federation should have never involved themselves.

 

[Tallguy]

The S’ona would likely have a claim on the planet, as well. Which means the Federation should have never involved themselves.

They were exiled by the rightful... Whatever basket weavers call government. Also (if I remember correctly) Salieri kept his legacy a secret. He never tried to make that claim.

Again, not Prime Directive, just good foreign affairs.

To me, the Prime Directive is a reflection of the Vietnam era and the anti-war position borne out of that which probably became even more dominant among people after the Iraq Wars and the War on Terror. That, even if you have the best of intentions, you CANNOT manipulate societies towards what you think is best for them without some sort of consequences, cost, or degree of suffering.

I've always hated this analogy. For one thing it turns people in other countries into "technologically and socially less advanced" to say nothing of "alien" in the "alien race" sense of the term.

 

[UssGlenn]

The S’ona would likely have a claim on the planet, as well. Which means the Federation should have never involved themselves.

Well, there are several layers to the situation that get revealed over the course of the movie, whether the PD applies or not depends on which scene you are in. It switches back and forth.

I've always hated this analogy. For one thing it turns people in other countries into "technologically and socially less advanced" to say nothing of "alien" in the "alien race" sense of the term.

How so?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

But we've seen in Errand of Mercy that they have a line. And boy howdy do they interfere then.

Anyway, I don't care. Pick your established Nearly Omnipotent Beings or make up a new one. Just make them wild interfering lunatics. And make everything they do GOOD. (Feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, preventing the occasional extinction level event.)

Kevin Uxbridge's less guilt ridden younger sister.

I wouldn't mind seeing that in a future Star Trek.

I'd love to see a version of an over benevolent Q type because being too good can also cause chaos..

 

[Tallguy]

How so?

I'm going to take a couple of leaps but I wouldn't say they are unwarranted. (THIS is how I define unwarranted.) It's often put forward (in the posts I was responding to, for one) that the PD was inspired by the United States' actions in Vietnam. But (for instance) it was NOT inspired by the United State's actions in West Germany. Because "those people" would be more like members of the Federation. (NATO in space.) And the Vietnamese would be more like... Oh, what's a Star Trek episode I could pick to represent Vietnam...?

(Today I learned that Gene Coon did not write A Private Little War. Although he did do one of the rewrites.)

 

[UssGlenn]

It's often put forward (in the posts I was responding to, for one) that the PD was inspired by the United States' actions in Vietnam. But (for instance) it was NOT inspired by the United State's actions in West Germany. Because "those people" would be more like members of the Federation. (NATO in space.) And the Vietnamese would be more like... Oh, what's a Star Trek episode I could pick to represent Vietnam...?

Ok, I think I see where you are coming from. I would say, however, that West Germany isn't a good analogy because we were there helping because we bombed the hell out of them first. Japan is in a simmilar situation. So, I think that line of argument against the PD depends of finding other examples of "helping" that did not end badly.

 

[Frontis]

There is something about the original idea of Prime Directive that people could also use and could have used here on earth. F.e. the USA probably wouldn't exist and the Native Americans would be happy

 

[Nerys Myk]

There is something about the original idea of Prime Directive that people could also use and could have used here on earth. F.e. the USA probably wouldn't exist and the Native Americans would be happy

If there was a PD on Earth we'd all be living in places like Mesopotamia.

 

[fireproof78]

To me, the Prime Directive is a reflection of the Vietnam era and the anti-war position borne out of that which probably became even more dominant among people after the Iraq Wars and the War on Terror. That, even if you have the best of intentions, you CANNOT manipulate societies towards what you think is best for them without some sort of consequences, cost, or degree of suffering.

Captain Janeway, is that you?

 

[Tallguy]

Ok, I think I see where you are coming from. I would say, however, that West Germany isn't a good analogy because we were there helping because we bombed the hell out of them first. Japan is in a simmilar situation. So, I think that line of argument against the PD depends of finding other examples of "helping" that did not end badly.

I was referring to the Berlin Airlift, not the Marshall plan. To say nothing of other aspects of the Cold War and NATO.

 

[UssGlenn]

If there was a PD on Earth we'd all be living in places like Mesopotamia.

People would be everywhere, but I figure the distribution would look something like 3000BC, just before the first age of empires

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

If there was a PD on Earth we'd all be living in places like Mesopotamia.

With no Tik Tok and no technology, or would things have gone a different way?

 

[Nerys Myk]

With no Tik Tok and no technology, or would things have gone a different way?

Its one of the cradles of civilization. I think we'll be good.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Its one of the cradles of civilization. I think we'll be good.

I agree

 

[Citiprime]

I'm going to take a couple of leaps but I wouldn't say they are unwarranted. (THIS is how I define unwarranted.) It's often put forward (in the posts I was responding to, for one) that the PD was inspired by the United States' actions in Vietnam. But (for instance) it was NOT inspired by the United State's actions in West Germany. Because "those people" would be more like members of the Federation. (NATO in space.) And the Vietnamese would be more like... Oh, what's a Star Trek episode I could pick to represent Vietnam...?

There are distinctions to be made between the United States' involvement in Germany versus Vietnam, but I would argue the concept of the Prime Directive applies to both of them and the Cold War as a whole.

The decision to defend West Germany and West Berlin was a MASSIVE, open-ended commitment that required DECADES of men, material, and resources being sent to Europe with the possibility of it resulting in the mutually assured destruction of most of humanity if it went sideways.

Would you have wanted a single US Navy captain making that decision for the United States on their own that it was worth it?

That's basically what every episode of Star Trek where the Prime Directive comes in to play posits. You have one ship, one crew, led by a single person, in the position to affect an entire planet's culture from that point forward making a decision that whatever consequences come from it, for both that culture and the Federation, are worth it.