How long before "The Man Trap" did McCoy know Kirk?

[Maurice]

Kinch and Baker in Hogan's Heroes. Fuji in McHale's Navy. Barney in Mission Impossible. Diahann Carroll as the lead in Julia. Gail FIsher as Peggy Maxwell in Mannix. Lloyd Haines and Denise Nicholas as the leads in Room 222 ( with several African-American supporting characters) Clarence Williams III as Linc in The Mod Squad. Rockne Tarrington as Rao and Manuel Padilla, Jr as Jai in Tarzan. Hari Rhodes as Mike in Daktari. Kam Fong and Zulu in Hawaii 5-0 Henry Darrow and Linda Cristal in the High Chaparral. Don Marshall as Dan in Land of the Giants. That's just off the top of my head for people of color on TV shows during TOS's run.

Robert [Admiral Morrow] Hooks in N.Y.P.D. also, starting fall of 1967. Basically, a lot of shows added black actors in the 1966-67 seasons because I Spy and Hogan's Heroes proved it was not an ratings killer (albeit I Spy was never a top rated show).

 

[Neopeius]

Kinch and Baker in Hogan's Heroes. Fuji in McHale's Navy. Barney in Mission Impossible. Diahann Carroll as the lead in Julia. Gail FIsher as Peggy Maxwell in Mannix. Lloyd Haines and Denise Nicholas as the leads in Room 222 ( with several African-American supporting characters) Clarence Williams III as Linc in The Mod Squad. Rockne Tarrington as Rao and Manuel Padilla, Jr as Jai in Tarzan. Hari Rhodes as Mike in Daktari. Kam Fong and Zulu in Hawaii 5-0 Henry Darrow and Linda Cristal in the High Chaparral. Don Marshall as Dan in Land of the Giants. That's just off the top of my head for people of color on TV shows during TOS's run.
Mission Impossible had Cinnamon Carter (Barbara Bain). The Girl From UNCLE had April Dancer (Stephanie Powers). Get Smart had 99 (Barbara Feldon) Honey West in Honey West (Ann Francis) Though that was more of a PI show, but she had gadgets. Tiger (Arlene Martel) and Marya (Nina Talbot) were reoccurring characters on Hogan's Heroes. Both were Allied spys.

Thank you for reminding me about Hogan's Heroes -- that's brand new this season, and I did notice. Daktari is also '65, but sadly, it's one of the very few shows I wasn't able to get for my station.

Honey West is a toughie -- yes, it stars a woman, but it's got more sexism than Burke's Law ever did. Good call on Get Smart. 99 is, indeed, a woman, and she's got a Julie Newmar comedic energy about her. She also, however, immediately falls in love with Maxwell Smart...

Mission Impossible hasn't come out yet (I haven't gotten to '66!). Of course, it's filmed next door to Trek at Desilu, so its progressive bonafides make sense. Greg Morris has appeared in some shows prior, too (The Fugitive, frex). Tarzan is '66, so I haven't seen it. Ditto Girl from UNCLE; that's a good catch.

That's all the contemporary shows.

Mannix comes out in 1967 (also Desilu). Ditto High Chapparal.
Julia comes out in 1968 (two seasons after Trek). Ditto Mod Squad, Land of the Giants, and Five Oh.
Room 222 comes out in 1969, after Trek is over.

So, I think it's safe to say that Trek is definitely a standout for '66, and certainly for featuring a Black woman as an officer on the bridge (even if her portrayal is not always ideal). Definitely Jane Foster level important. And remember that the Trek pilot was filmed in '64 and featured a woman as First Officer! Had the show been picked up for '65, it would really have stood out (would Nichelle Nichols have been signed? I don't know -- she was already in Roddenberry's orbit, viz. The Lieutenant).

 

[Neopeius]

Thank you for reminding me about Hogan's Heroes -- that's brand new this season, and I did notice. Daktari is also '65, but sadly, it's one of the very few shows I wasn't able to get for my station.

Honey West is a toughie -- yes, it stars a woman, but it's got more sexism than Burke's Law ever did. Good call on Get Smart. 99 is, indeed, a woman, and she's got a Julie Newmar comedic energy about her. She also, however, immediately falls in love with Maxwell Smart...

Mission Impossible hasn't come out yet (I haven't gotten to '66!). Of course, it's filmed next door to Trek at Desilu, so its progressive bonafides make sense. Greg Morris has appeared in some shows prior, too (The Fugitive, frex). Tarzan is '66, so I haven't seen it. Ditto Girl from UNCLE; that's a good catch.

That's all the contemporary shows.

Mannix comes out in 1967 (also Desilu). Ditto High Chapparal.
Julia comes out in 1968 (two seasons after Trek). Ditto Mod Squad, Land of the Giants, and Five Oh.
Room 222 comes out in 1969, after Trek is over.

So, I think it's safe to say that Trek is definitely a standout for '66, and certainly for featuring a Black woman as an officer on the bridge (even if her portrayal is not always ideal). Definitely Jane Foster level. And remember that the Trek pilot was filmed in '64 and featured a woman as First Officer! Had the show been picked up for '65, it would really have stood out (would Nichelle Nichols have been signed? I don't know -- she was already in Roddenberry's orbit, viz. The Lieutenant).

(P.S. I note that Big Valley's got some strong women in it -- that started '65)

 

[Shawnster]

• 1000 stardates = one Earth year or 365.25 days or 8766 hours; or ~2.74 stardates = 1 day;

Fascinating. I've always attributed anything after the decimal to be hours with Stardate XXXX.5 to be at Noon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Mission Impossible hasn't come out yet (I haven't gotten to '66!). Of course, it's filmed next door to Trek at Desilu, so its progressive bonafides make sense. Greg Morris has appeared in some shows prior, too (The Fugitive, frex). Tarzan is '66, so I haven't seen it. Ditto Girl from UNCLE; that's a good catch.

TOS is '66 too having premiered on Sept 8th of that year with MI following on Sept 17th. I think both were following the request by advertisers to include people of color in their casts. I think the impulse was partially profit and not just progressive. The '64 pilot was pretty white and GR was happy to dump Number One to please the suits. It was riding the was not creating it.

 

[Pauln6]

Which is still better than not being able to dream about a feminist future even 200 years from now.

Only 30% women, and only one woman in the bridge crew all the time, doesn't sound like much... but it's a lot better than the 0% that you'd get from almost all 1960s shows.

I think Gene's underlying attitudes do show through insist thumbnail characterisation of the female characters but he wasn't the only writer. I was always disappointed that D C Fontana didn't really show much aptitude for showcasing the women in the show either. Ellison's kick ass Rand was whittled down to Uhura saying she was frightened.

 

[Neopeius]

TOS is '66 too having premiered on Sept 8th of that year with MI following on Sept 17th. I think both were following the request by advertisers to include people of color in their casts. I think the impulse was partially profit and not just progressive. The '64 pilot was pretty white and GR was happy to dump Number One to please the suits. It was riding the was not creating it.

Profit is always a prime motivator. Nevertheless, Trek (and MI?) were definitely the highly visible crest of the wave.

 

[J.T.B.]

The WW2 wartime promotion track was still fresh in TOS writers' minds.

Rapid promotions are common in wartime, because the forces expand massively and leadership positions have to expand with it, and vacancies open up through casualties. I didn't get the impression that kind of situation existed in TOS.

Matt Ridgway (the poster child for young generals) went from O-5 to O-8 in four months.

Matthew Ridgway was a lieutenant colonel US Army when war was declared, promoted major general AUS 5 Aug 1942 at age 47, so about eight months.

Curtis LeMay started the war as a major, promoted major general AUS 2 March 1944, age 37.

Both lost a star and went down to brigadier general US Army after the war.

 

[Neopeius]

Rapid promotions are common in wartime, because the forces expand massively and leadership positions have to expand with it, and vacancies open up through casualties. I didn't get the impression that kind of situation existed in TOS.

Given that Starfleet went to the brink of war with three star empires in the course of the Enterprise's three year mission (shots fired in at least once instance), it felt pretty wartime to me. Not to mention Kirk's first commendation was for his "Peace mission to Axanar".

There's no question Kirk's promotion was rapid (viz. Courtmartial) so the question becomes how the system accommodated such a meteoric rise. Was it wartime? Was it a rapid expansion of Starfleet? Lots of potential for stories there.

 

[Henoch]

Fascinating. I've always attributed anything after the decimal to be hours with Stardate XXXX.5 to be at Noon.

Simply, decimals are decimals...each 0.1 Stardate is 0.877 hours or 52.6 minutes. The human crewmen still think in hours, minutes and seconds as evidence by the ship's chronometer displaying only Earth time units. I wonder where does the Stardate display for the personnel recording log entries? Is it hidden on the PADDs or on their electronic contact lens? I have never seen a Stardate clock in TOS.

 

[Timo]

There's no question Kirk's promotion was rapid (viz. Courtmartial)

How exactly does "Court Martial" suggest rapid promotion? Kirk's record is "inestimable", but his status as starship skipper is nothing to write home about: Stone considers him an equal rather than a better, say. Kirk is two steps above his buddy Finney, but Finney is explicitly below the curve there. And nobody in TOS considers Kirk famous as far as captains of starships go: Pike and Tracey are the celebrities there, while Decker and Wesley already hold higher rank and may well have been promoted to Kirk's at a younger age than our main hero.

so the question becomes how the system accommodated such a meteoric rise. Was it wartime? Was it a rapid expansion of Starfleet? Lots of potential for stories there.

Well, "Whom Gods Destroy" rather explicitly refers to Kirk's warrior past, specifically as a leader of warriors. If we combine "leader" and "past", we get somebody who led people in combat while quite young, and thus have every reason to believe in wartime. Especially as Kirk otherwise, in that very episode and in "Let That Be", emphasizes the "past" thing and feels there's no place for warrior antics in the present or even the immediate past.

So, wartime in Kirk's youth, presumably long before he made Captain. DSC now gives us the extremely convenient Burnham's War, hectic but brief and an aberration from apparently relatively peaceful norm. It is also a war where the Fleet would not expand much - rather, loss of personnel would be accompanied by such loss of ships that there'd probably be an excess of starship Captains if anything. So Kirk can both skyrocket, and then take a breather before getting a starship command, and be considered both an exceptional hero and an unremarkable skipper whose true fame still awaits him.

Certainly lots of potential for stories, and we even have a suitable forum for them, in Strange New Worlds. But come the mid-2260s, Kirk must become the man with the great past and future, rather than the man with the great present...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

"Burnham's War" is a good choice for the Battle of Axanar and Garth. Though in 2256-7 Kirk is cadet or junior officer. So his "warrior" reputation might come from a later conflict.

 

[J.T.B.]

Given that Starfleet went to the brink of war with three star empires in the course of the Enterprise's three year mission (shots fired in at least once instance), it felt pretty wartime to me.

More like the Cold War, though, where standing forces dealt with flare-ups as needed. Clearly Enterprise's missions were predominantly peacetime routine and they didn't engage in combat with Klingons whenever they encountered them.

There's no question Kirk's promotion was rapid (viz. Courtmartial) so the question becomes how the system accommodated such a meteoric rise. Was it wartime? Was it a rapid expansion of Starfleet? Lots of potential for stories there.

If it was system-wide, though, Kirk's classmates should be commanders or lieutenant commanders at least, and the "best first officer in the fleet" would be assigned a command of his own. Kirk's situation seems more unique than wartime or rapid expansion would indicate.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If it was system-wide, though, Kirk's classmates should be commanders or lieutenant commanders at least, and the "best first officer in the fleet" would be assigned a command of his own. Kirk's situation seems more unique than wartime or rapid expansion would indicate.

Kirk's Academy buddies don't seem to be Captains. Tim's a redshirt and old Mike is just a Lieutenant.

KIRK: Timothy, I haven't seen you since the Vulcanian expedition. (no reply) Well, I see our graduating class from the Academy is well represented. Corrigan. Teller. How you doing, Mike?

 

[Timo]

...Emphasis on "old". I rather wonder: is this the class from which Cadet Kirk graduated, or the class Lieutenant Kirk helped graduate?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Kirk's Academy buddies don't seem to be Captains. Tim's a redshirt and old Mike is just a Lieutenant.

That's what I'm saying. If a wartime/emergency expansion is responsible for Kirk's rapid rise, you would expect his classmates to be the same grade or one grade behind, but not three behind.

 

[Neopeius]

How exactly does "Court Martial" suggest rapid promotion? Decker and Wesley already hold higher rank and may well have been promoted to Kirk's at a younger age than our main hero.

All the middle aged lieutenants in the Starbase 11 bar who were fellow Academicians.

Decker was in his mid-40s as a Commodore. He could have been a Captain at 33, it's true. Which would speak to the specialness of Starship captains.

Wesley definitely is a strapping young Commodore, but he's in his early 40s. Again, on Kirk's timeline or maybe slightly behind it.

So Kirk can both skyrocket, and then take a breather before getting a starship command, and be considered both an exceptional hero and an unremarkable skipper whose true fame still awaits him.

When I rewatch the series, I'll see if it's clear that Kirk is something special in his time or if that's something that came afterward.

 

[Neopeius]

That's what I'm saying. If a wartime/emergency expansion is responsible for Kirk's rapid rise, you would expect his classmates to be the same grade or one grade behind, but not three behind.

Wartime affords the opportunity to advance but doesn't guarantee it. So the implication is that opportunity exists, and Kirk is exceptional.

 

[Nerys Myk]

When I rewatch the series, I'll see if it's clear that Kirk is something special in his time or if that's something that came afterward.

The show's very Enterprise-centric. Hard to gage what the other guys are doing, aside from the occasional one going nuts

 

[J.T.B.]

Wartime affords the opportunity to advance but doesn't guarantee it. So the implication is that opportunity exists, and Kirk is exceptional.

So which is it, was Kirk's rapid promotion a result of his uniqueness or a greatly increased number of positions? If a general expansion of the fleet is the cause of rapid promotions, they will necessarily be spread throughout the service: The captain's commands will need commanders and more lieutenant commanders and these will have to come from the most experienced officers available. To take the regular US Navy in 1945 for an example (in round numbers), of approximately 2100 captains, about 780 were permanent commanders and 1040 lieutenant commanders. Of 2200 commanders, about 420 were permanent lieutenant commanders and 1570 lieutenants. By the time you get down to 6500 lieutenants, only about 70 are permanent lieutenants or JGs, the other 99% are ensigns. The permanent lieutenants are almost all serving in higher grades.

One should expect the average officer to benefit from the increased number of positions, even if not going going as high as Kirk. Unless just by chance they encountered Kirk's least-promotable classmates together at the Starbase club.