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How is/isn't Discovery Star Trek?

I'm pretty sure that I made this clear in my original post. The decision to purposefully tie it to the TOS backstory is unique.

So is the decision to make a show about a ship stranded on the other side of the galaxy and so is the decision to make a show about the first steps of starfleet. All unique concepts. All set within the same backstory established by TOS. You just tried to downplay that to make Discovery's premise sound better. The thing is... the other shows had their ties with each other (TNG = Look, it's set on an enterprise ; DS9 = look, it's set after Picard as a borg ; Voyager = look, it starts from DS9, and so on). But they had concepts beyond that. I'm still not seeing that in Discovery. So far, the show is just about flashy items. Aside from the spore drive, they are all old and hardly original.
 
Everything has the potential to be rocky. Everything has the potential to be awesome. Won't know until we start watching.

Unlike most, I choose to believe it's going to continue to improve dramatically, like most Trek series did.

I'd feel more confident if there was a single person working in the writers room I had a high opinion of (like how Chabon is now working on the Picard show). But it's for the most part either hacks I know have done shit work, or young people with basically no established reputation that I find it hard to judge the quality of.
 
So is the decision to make a show about a ship stranded on the other side of the galaxy and so is the decision to make a show about the first steps of starfleet. All unique concepts. All set within the same backstory established by TOS. You just tried to downplay that to make Discovery's premise sound better. The thing is... the other shows had their ties with each other (TNG = Look, it's set on an enterprise ; DS9 = look, it's set after Picard as a borg ; Voyager = look, it starts from DS9, and so on). But they had concepts beyond that. I'm still not seeing that in Discovery. So far, the show is just about flashy items. Aside from the spore drive, they are all old and hardly original.

No, the premise of VOY or ENT had potential to be unique. The execution was almost exactly that of TNG, making it a copy-of-a-copy. Nothing unique or original...and the settings and premises were squandered. Those shows were completely unoriginal copies with nothing truly distinguishing them as different other than the designs of the ships and the mix of generic characters.

The very premise of DSC is that it takes place in and explores the backstory of TOS and TOS-related characters. Like I said...you can like it or dislike it...but saying that isn't an original take on Star Trek is incorrect. It's as original as the franchise has dared to be since DS9.

You're not "seeing it in Discovery" because you don't like Discovery. So, naturally, we look for things to rationalize and justify our opinions.

But the fact is, this is the most unique approach and execution Star Trek has seen in a very long time.
 
I'd feel more confident if there was a single person working in the writers room I had a high opinion of (like how Chabon is now working on the Picard show). But it's for the most part either hacks I know have done shit work, or young people with basically no established reputation that I find it hard to judge the quality of.

I could care less. I don't know if they wrote War and Peace or fucking Captain Underpants. I don't follow Hollywood like that. I just sit down and watch the show and if it entertains me, I'm pleased.

When I watch football, I don't give a rat's ass who the Offensive Coordinator is or who the Director of Player Personnel is. I just want to watch a game.
 
No, the premise of VOY or ENT had potential to be unique. The execution was almost exactly that of TNG, making it a copy-of-a-copy. Nothing unique or original...and the settings and premises were squandered. Those shows were completely unoriginal copies with nothing truly distinguishing them as different other than the designs of the ships and the mix of generic characters.

I'm not a big fan of ENT, but only the first two seasons were a crappy watered down version of TNG (and VOY). The third season was crappy watered down DS9. The last season was the first attempt to really do something with the premise of the show, and interesting - albeit still not as good as it could have been.

The very premise of DSC is that it takes place in and explores the backstory of TOS and TOS-related characters. Like I said...you can like it or dislike it...but saying that isn't an original take on Star Trek is incorrect. It's as original as the franchise has dared to be since DS9.

What you are saying here conflicts with what you said above, where you noted the premise of VOY and ENT were different, but the exeuction identical. I agree the premise is different for DIS yet again (though really, it's not that different from DS9 or ENT Season 3). But it's really the execution that differs, because Berman Trek was a 90s product, and DIS is a 2010s product.

Still, I strongly disagree though that - despite lots of Easter eggs for fans - much has been done to address the pre-TOS status quo compared to - say - ENT's 4th season. Lethe provided some insight into why Sarek and Spock didn't get along. And we got to see more of Mudd - albeit a Mudd that differs from TOS by a lot. But really the series to date raises more questions about how it squares away with TOS than it answers. I expect some of these will be solved, but it's the show basically making its own mysteries rather than exploring existing ones.

You're not "seeing it in Discovery" because you don't like Discovery. So, naturally, we look for things to rationalize and justify our opinions.

There is much truth in this statement. Enjoyment of anything is of course subjective. For example, there have been blind taste tests of wine which has shown that the enjoyment people have in it is correlated to the price they are told it commands, irrespective of the actual flavor. So what we bring into watching DIS before even sitting down plays a big role in if we are primed to reject it or embrace it.
 
But really the series to date raises more questions about how it squares away with TOS than it answers. I expect some of these will be solved, but it's the show basically making its own mysteries rather than exploring existing ones.
isn't this sort of outside the series itself though? if the producers hadn't stated in interviews that "all would be revealed" and we'd see how discovery lines up with TOS, discovery could simply be set in the "star trek universe". it's the insistence of fans that the show perfectly line up with the continuity of the earlier series and the creators' acquiescence that's created this perception.
 
There is much truth in this statement. Enjoyment of anything is of course subjective. For example, there have been blind taste tests of wine which has shown that the enjoyment people have in it is correlated to the price they are told it commands, irrespective of the actual flavor. So what we bring into watching DIS before even sitting down plays a big role in if we are primed to reject it or embrace it.

It never ceases to amaze me how much people need to "be right" about this stuff, though.

I don't like a lot of things. I don't like MU movies, for example. I've never gone on a rant about how they are bad in a discussion with a bunch of people though. I simply don't watch them and (even more importantly) don't spend time arguing my point-of-view with people whom I know don't agree with me on a message board in the hopes that I will somehow win the day...or whatever.

I don't need to be right about it. I'm just going to avoid things I don't like and I'm certainly not compelled to come up with a bunch of rationalizing to make me feel better about an opinion that should really only matter to me...
 
isn't this sort of outside the series itself though? if the producers hadn't stated in interviews that "all would be revealed" and we'd see how discovery lines up with TOS, discovery could simply be set in the "star trek universe". it's the insistence of fans that the show perfectly line up with the continuity of the earlier series and the creators' acquiescence that's created this perception.
For me (and only me, it seems), I could care less what the producers say. I have enjoyed their insight, but certainly don't think about it while watching Discovery.

I think that's what it comes down to: what am I thinking about as I watch Discovery? If I demanding that it fit all of my preconceived notions then I'll probably more frustrated and irritated because it didn't show up like I thought it would. That's why I hate trailers. They are rarely a good indication of what a product actually will be about and set up expectations that are railed against.

I'll stick with my ability to connect the different Trek's together rather than expect the production staff do it.
 
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For me (and only me, it seems), I could care less what the producers say. I have enjoyed their insight, but certainly don't think about it while watching Discovery.

It's a great point.

I don't think about anything while watching DSC (or the Kelvinmovies, or the new SW movies, etc) except "am I enjoying this experience??"

I don't have many expectations or preconceived notions about what things "should" or "must" be.

As a result, I'm a pretty happy camper. I enjoy a great many of these things for what they are while other genre fans are really quite upset. I wouldn't trade my take on it for the world.
 
It's like 10 years will change a person, and being recently tortured by Klingons might have impacted Mudd's mind. I know it's weird. :shrug:

I'm not saying it's indefensible. But so far Mudd's appearance in the show raises more questions than it solves. Albeit small questions compared to the Spore Drive, why the Klingon War was never mentioned, and why the Klingons look the way they do. Still some questions though. It would be like a miniseries featuring young Ben Sisko was done, and he was a very lazy, unfocused person. You'd be expecting the narrative to eventually explain how he got his act together. If it didn't, you'd be left wanting more.

isn't this sort of outside the series itself though? if the producers hadn't stated in interviews that "all would be revealed" and we'd see how discovery lines up with TOS, discovery could simply be set in the "star trek universe". it's the insistence of fans that the show perfectly line up with the continuity of the earlier series and the creators' acquiescence that's created this perception.

I suppose. I should say most of the enjoyment I had during the airing of Season 1 was trying to square away the season arc with TOS - which is part of why I continued to wonder if DIS was going to either slip into another universe (which really was the PU) or go back in time to fix everything.

I think that's what it comes down to: what am I thinking about as I watch Discovery? If I demanding that it fit all of my preconceived notions then I'll probably more frustrated and irritated because it didn't show up like I thought it would. That's why I hate trailers. They are rarely a good indication of what a product actually will be about and set up expectations that are railed against..

I dunno. I feel like once you've read a lot of criticism of film/TV/literature you can't help but have an internal monologue noticing some of the same things. Much like a friend of mine who went to film school taught me a bit about cinematography, which I can as a result never unsee. Once you start looking at things as a critic, you can never just be the same sort of passive sponge to media again.
 
DSC is the first franchise series to purposefully link to the backstory of TOS.

To be fair, novels and comics have been doing it for nearly fifty years. So it really isn't "new" to anyone with any familiarity with the franchise.
 
I'm not saying it's indefensible. But so far Mudd's appearance in the show raises more questions than it solves. Albeit small questions compared to the Spore Drive, why the Klingon War was never mentioned, and why the Klingons look the way they do. Still some questions though. It would be like a miniseries featuring young Ben Sisko was done, and he was a very lazy, unfocused person. You'd be expecting the narrative to eventually explain how he got his act together. If it didn't, you'd be left wanting more.
I'm always left wanting more. That's how I know that I've enjoyed it.
I dunno. I feel like once you've read a lot of criticism of film/TV/literature you can't help but have an internal monologue noticing some of the same things. Much like a friend of mine who went to film school taught me a bit about cinematography, which I can as a result never unsee. Once you start looking at things as a critic, you can never just be the same sort of passive sponge to media again.
There is a difference between being overly critical and a passive sponge. I have learned numerous film making techniques from friends in Hollywood and in Mass Communication and I find myself observing those things.

It's whether or not I am distracted to the point of going "this is bad because they didn't follow what X producer said" or "this is wrong because the trailer was different" and on and on that I find issue. Then I am no longer engaged in the story, I'm engaged with the pieces of the story.
 
I could care less. I don't know if they wrote War and Peace or fucking Captain Underpants. I don't follow Hollywood like that. I just sit down and watch the show and if it entertains me, I'm pleased.

When I watch football, I don't give a rat's ass who the Offensive Coordinator is or who the Director of Player Personnel is. I just want to watch a game.
Captain Underpants and Tolstoy, that is symmetry! :lol:
 
I read a Captain Underpants book to my son, and it referenced Star Trek and Mad Max....pretty impressive!!
That's cool!

I on the other hand thought it would be grown up to read War and Peace when I was about ten. Bad idea. (Think I was showing off and failed).
 
That's cool!

I on the other hand thought it would be grown up to read War and Peace when I was about ten. Bad idea. (Think I was showing off and failed).

As a Trek fan, I tried to read "A Tale of Two Cities" in 6th grade. Also a horrific idea.
 
[...snip...]
You're conflating and/or confusing things.

There has ever really only been one argument: The suggestion Micheal is a canon violation or "never existed" because she was neither previously mentioned or appeared on screen is a fallacy. This goes back to the day it was first revealed she was Spock's sister.

Unfortunately, this argument devolved into "she's a bad character because her association with Spock has never been mentioned before." and the implication that not having Spock ever mention her is somehow detrimental to her existence. While this is perfectly valid subjective opinion (albeit unwarranted), my point is that she was never mentioned (I mean, beyond for the obvious.) because she was never plot-relevant, which also seems to be something you're confusing.

Plot-relevancy isn't just limited to the plot itself. It's all the stuff that turns plot into story - instead of just being a collection of randomly assembled sequential events. It's all the things that lend credence and motive to characters' actions and reactions and the things that trigger them. And it is also anything that adds thematic texture, as theme and plot are intertwined -- especially in something as thematically driven as Star Trek. Plot-relevancy is a roadmap for the audience meant to guide or even manipulate expectation. To that end, both demonstrating O'Brien comes from a blue-collar background and that Garak talks too much (which often lands him into trouble) perfectly fit the bill. And, yes, writers only ever stick to plot-relevancy, which is why scripts aren't randomly littered with superfluous trivia.

Micheal was never plot-relevant. And, like @fireproof78 said, whether it's Micheal or Sarek or David or whomever, this holds true any way you work. The fact that Spock had never mentioned his parents before was used (besides for the cheap dramatic beat) to quantify the rift between them. But imagine this was the case and Kirk says something like "Mr. and Mrs Sarek. It's so nice to finally meet you. Spock talks about you all the time." People would run to the interwebz fanzine shouting "ZOMG! Spock didn't mention his parents during the chess game in WNMHGB! Canon violation!!!!!1111" That sort of thing happens all the time in TV. The audience just accepts that the reason they've never been mentioned is that, up to that point, they've never been important. And despite peoples instance to the contrary, there is no matter of magnitude for Micheal.

And this is all true, even if we could somehow magically Warp 9 back to 1965 and pencil in Micheal Burnham into Gene's show notes. Assuming all the shows play out the same, there's nowhere to put her that wouldn't feel forced and out of place. This includes Babel. Having Amanda shout "Why can't you be more like your sister?!" during their argument adds nothing to the story and just lands WTF face on the audience. That does not mean, however, Spock didn't ask about her off-screen while they were laying in the med beds. We have no way of knowing and it's illogical (See what I did there?) to assume one way or the other.

What does it say about Spock that he never discussed Sybok? Well, his father had a failed marriage and a son who contradicted everything Vulcans apparently stand for (T’Pol treats those emotional Vulcans like deviants in Enterprise). So I can understand him not bringing up Sybok.

What does it say about Spock that he never discussed his human sister who was also in Starfleet *and* a science officer who *also* tried her hardest to be Vulcan despite being human (very similar to Spock)? Did she embarrass him? Why? Was he ashamed of her? Did he never see her as his real sister? Was he totally indifferent to her? Did he secretly love her, explaining his spurning of poor Nurse Chapel?
And this right here is the crux of the matter.

It doesn't say anything about Spock. You're making assumptions and drawing conclusions based on facts not in evidence.

This is like, during his closing, a prosecutor arguing the defendant is guilty because he doesn't love his sister -- a sister who was never a witness, never mentioned in testimony, and never described in any document entered into evidence. This would get the prosecutor into hot water, even if the sister was sitting in the gallery.

We can't make any assumptions about their relationship or even how ell Jimmy knows her. Think of it this way: Spock and Kirk's [on-screen] relationship spans well-over a quarter-century, yet, of all that time, only about a year (if even) is depicted on screen. We have no idea how well Kirk knows Micheal. It's very possible they're very close friends. But until something appears on screen, it's irrational to assume one way or the other.
 
You're conflating and/or confusing things.
Not deliberately, I assure you :) also it doesn’t look like my point has been quoted correctly here - had me confused and looking back at what I’d written :lol:

There has ever really only been one argument: The suggestion Micheal is a canon violation or "never existed" because she was neither previously mentioned or appeared on screen is a fallacy. This goes back to the day it was first revealed she was Spock's sister.
I don’t agree with that suggestion btw - this is what I meant when I was talking about proving a negative. We can’t prove Michael never existed so her existence is perfectly valid, even if it irks me personally.

Unfortunately, this argument devolved into "she's a bad character because her association with Spock has never been mentioned before."
I see where you’re coming from but personally I don’t think she’s a bad character for that reason. I have a whole host of reasons why I think she’s a bad character. For me the fact that she was never mentioned before is simply a sticking point for a character in a prequel who relates to such a well known character in the period 10 years hence. But, as I’ve said above, there’s nothing contradicting canon by her very existence.

the implication that not having Spock ever mention her is somehow detrimental to her existence.
Well if I implied that then apologies. I don’t find it detrimental to her existence. More that it’s hard to find the character believable.

my point is that she was never mentioned (I mean, beyond for the obvious.) because she was never plot-relevant, which also seems to be something you're confusing.
Well no, but when Sisko mentions his father’s point about the soufflé either rising or it won’t in “pale moonlight”, that little anecdote is motivated by Sisko’s character, rather than the plot itself. Yet, the plot influences the character’s choices - so we can conclude that the plots of the TOS episodes where Michael may have been mentioned never influenced the characters to being her up? Suggesting that none of the original 79 episodes or OG films motivated Spock ever to mention his human Starfleet science officer sister who he grew up with. Particularly considering the increased interaction with Sarek the movie era brought about. Now I’m not saying that’s in any way detrimental to Michael’s character - it just seems unusual is all, considering that we’re supposed to accept this character as a large part of Spock’s life prior to TOS.

It's all the things that lend credence and motive to characters' actions and reactions and the things that trigger them.
I submit that mentioning his sister (given all they have in common) would have lent credence to Spock’s character - given the time travel Gene’s notes scenario you mention.

But... this all may become clear as DSC develops. My hope is that the writers essentially “classify” Michael so that Spock has a reason not to talk about her.

I want her to do something huge - paradigm-altering - but likely in a bad way (since she has form given her mutiny) to mean that Spock may well have been embarrassed to mention her.

It doesn't say anything about Spock. You're making assumptions and drawing conclusions based on facts not in evidence.
Since Michael is Spock’s sister, I don’t agree with this assessment. But I do agree that we don’t have all the facts yet that pertain to their relationship.

This is like, during his closing, a prosecutor arguing the defendant is guilty because he doesn't love his sister -- a sister who was never a witness, never mentioned in testimony, and never described in any document entered into evidence. This would get the prosecutor into hot water, even if the sister was sitting in the gallery.
If the rest of the closing pertained to the defendant’s character I think the jury would be swayed by the prosecutor commenting that the defendant never loved his sister.

In this analogy we, the audience, are the jury.

We can't make any assumptions about their relationship
We can, of course - but they’re ill advised since we don’t have all the facts.

It’s fun :)

But until something appears on screen, it's irrational to assume one way or the other.
I feel like Neelix to your Tuvok here since I’m arguing for the enjoyment associated with discussing hypothetical things in an entertainment show.

Are you happy? You’ve made me Neelix :lol:
 
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