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How is atheism a faith?

welcome to the board, Oddish :) Perhaps as a compromise you could write your reply as a text file on your PC, transfer it to the device you use for going online, save it online and link to it?

from my personal pov as an atheist, atheism is not a faith. I don't have faith in the nonexistence of deities. I am certain that there aren't any and I think we can take the global situation for the last centuries as a proof of there being no god. Or at least none that's interested in us.
 
I got your message. Unfortunately, since my PC isn't connected to the internet, my ability to produce long posts is limited at this time. But, a reply to your question is being produced, and it will be posted within a few hours. Alas, as a newbie I cannot PM you when it does, so keep your eyes open.

Who are you addressing?
 
Who are you addressing?
The creator of the thread, the OP. This thread is a carryover from their epic cage match in the GenTrek forum of champions, and we all have the duty, nay... HONOR, to observe what happens here today and recollect it for generations to come. Finally, the longstanding feud between atheists and believers will come to an end here in Miscellaneous, on this day of days.

Gentlepeople, let's get ready to gruuuuumble!
 
Is a lack of faith some kind of faith? I think so. Because we lack a lot of knowledge about the universe.
 
from my personal pov as an atheist, atheism is not a faith. I don't have faith in the nonexistence of deities. I am certain that there aren't any
I'm similarly absolutely devoid of belief in luck, supernatural, gods etc. I see no justification, reason or excuse. Simply having some things we cannot yet explain (which are steadily diminishing) doesn't require the equivalent of "A wizard did it".

However, I'd say that certainty is not possible. The existence of gods is both unnecessary and incredibly unlikely. Massively incredibly unlikely, but you can't prove a negative.
 
I'm similarly absolutely devoid of belief in luck, supernatural, gods etc. I see no justification, reason or excuse. Simply having some things we cannot yet explain (which are steadily diminishing) doesn't require the equivalent of "A wizard did it".

You are believing in a massive amount of data that we don't know to be true yet, or you haven't experienced. Which is a kind of faith. Just different from believing in a deity.

Faith shouldn't be some kind of dirty word.
 
You are believing in a massive amount of data that we don't know to be true yet, or you haven't experienced. Which is a kind of faith. Just different from believing in a deity.

Faith shouldn't be some kind of dirty word.
Yes, but I am believing masses of the best data that we currently posess, as a best option until more data comes along to support or contradict it. Admittedly mostly second hand and filtered by (masses) of other minds, peer reviewing. It's a process.

All of it requires at least some evidence. Or the admission that "We just don't know". Absolutely none of it requires anything supernatural.

Edit : I didn't believe in the Higgs Boson before it was proven. I thought it extremely likely to exist. Now we know.
 
Absolutely none of it requires anything supernatural.

And? It is still faith that we are on the right track about unlocking the secrets of the universe.

I'm not a religious person, by any means, but that doesn't mean there isn't something more to what we are, to what the universe is, that we simply don't know/understand yet. A lot of what we do now would've been supernatural magic five centuries ago. Who knows what we'll learn/experience in the next five centuries?
 
This was General Trek Discussion. Topic: Worst Lines Of Dialogue in Trek? (or something like that, page 10 of that thread) The poster's name was Oddish.
It might have been good to clarify that in the original post, since this is a large-ish BBS and many users here only look at certain sections of the site. To those who mainly use the Misc forum or don't visit GTD much, it looks really weird for a thread to show up out of the blue without context, just saying "let's continue the discussion," with no indication of what discussion is being continued, who was involved, etc. And conversely, those who don't use the Misc forum might not see this right away. :shrug:

Kor
 
It might have been good to clarify that in the original post, since this is a large-ish BBS and many users here only look at certain sections of the site. To those who mainly use the Misc forum or don't visit GTD much, it looks really weird for a thread to show up out of the blue without context, just saying "let's continue the discussion," with no indication of what discussion is being continued, who was involved, etc. And conversely, those who don't use the Misc forum might not see this right away. :shrug:

Kor
Have faith of the heart, young padawan.
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You are believing in a massive amount of data that we don't know to be true yet, or you haven't experienced. Which is a kind of faith. Just different from believing in a deity.
Non-belief in something is not the same as having faith in something. How much time and effort do you expend contemplating the existence of dragons or unicorns* or the Norse pantheon? You can't 100% prove their non-existence, but there's no evidence of their existence either, so it's just not an issue that ever really comes up. If at some future point Thor comes riding up to me on a unicorn and I'm not high as fuck or medicated, I might have to reconsider that position, but until then, I just have no reason to believe in his existence outside a Marvel movie.

Religious adherents make the same kinds of decisions about not believing in religion and mythology as atheists do every day, they just do it about other people's myths and sects and interpretations that they don't agree with. Now, if they do it because their belief system says "This is the way" and all other belief systems have the wrong idea, then that is faith. If they do it because there simply is no evidence to support that other belief system, then that is not faith-based, it's just observation and extrapolation.

I dunno, I wasn't a philosophy major, so I'm terrible at explaining these things. I'm just saying that faith requires a more active component than simple non-belief in something because you've seen no evidence to support it either in personal observation or scientific consensus.

* Not being dismissive of anyone's faith by comparing it to mythological creatures here, just using a general example that we all have things we don't believe in whether you're a religious adherent or an atheist. It's just a factor of where we draw the line.
 
Non-belief in something is not the same as having faith in something.

I'm not very good at explaining, but we all have something that we frame our world/experiences with. For me, it is largely science, not religion, but I still have "faith" in their explanations of the world.

I'm not a scientist but I have faith in science, I have faith that their data and observations are the correct ones.* So I do see it as a kind of faith.

*I'm speaking generally, I know not every scientist/scientific theory is correct.
 
The creator of the thread, the OP. This thread is a carryover from their epic cage match in the GenTrek forum of champions...

It wasn't an epic cage match, it was a couple of guys staring each other down and exchanging choice words, and it ended when a guy in a police uniform (badge #11001001) cleared his throat and pulled out his nightstick.

Be that as it may, OP asked for an explanation of why I believe that atheism is a faith. Here's my explanation:


Let us first get a matter of terminology out of the way. Simply put, a faith can be simply defined as the belief in anything that the person who practices it cannot prove by concrete means.


To believe in evolution (which I do) is not a faith, because the processes that fuel it are observable and verifiable. In the crucible of nature, organisms that are well-suited to survival last long enough to reproduce. Organisms that are ill-suited to survival do not. In time, natural genetic mutation (also an observable process) allows them to upgrade themselves over time. Additionally, the selective breeding process by which humans have gradually turned timber wolves into St. Bernards, Rottweilers, and Chihuahus is simply vastly accelerated evolution.


However, evolution only explains so much. Its primary weakness is rooted in a scientific principle established in the mid-19th century, by Louis Pasteur and his contemporaries, when they shot down the commonly held theory of spontaneous generation. The primary principle of evolution is that it is fueled by death. Ergo, by extension, the process of evolution can only initiate when you have living organisms. Dead things cannot evolve. They are bound to the laws of physics and statistics, rather than those of evolution.


The problem with Pasteur's work is that it throws a giant monkey wrench into the gears of atheism, which postulates that everything on earth (indeed, in the universe) formed randomly, with no outside help whatsoever. And the problem is that the very sciences that atheists rely upon refute that belief. The laws of physics tell us what happens in an energized system, such as a planet in a stable orbit around a star: the transfer of energy causes changes in the system on a molecular level. The laws of probability tell us the nature of these changes: order can occasionally emerge from chaos, but it is much more typical that order decays into chaos. Ergo, nothing as sophisticated as a bacterium (the simplest self-sustaining form of life) can just "happen". Small and humble as it might be, said bacterium is a conglomeration of around ten billion precisely placed atoms. A jigsaw puzzle of such size and complexity cannot possibly assemble itself.


Devout atheists either loudly ignore this, with the same ferocity as a fundamentalist defending six-day creationism, or they try to come up with theories as to how such an event could happen. They call it "abiogenesis", I call it "spontaneous generation 2.0", the reintroduction of a scientific principle that the scientific community had declared unsound before Edison had even invented the light bulb. One common defense for it is the notion that scientists were able to observe the random formation of simple amino acids in an energized environment. Problem is, an amino acid is 10-26 atoms, not ten billion. Relying on this experiment to prove your theory is a little like throwing one pitch in a baseball game, having the umpire call a strike, and declaring yourself the winner.


Proponents of atheism call this the Watchmaker argument, and they bluster that it has been repeatedly debunked, but they cannot tell us how or why, aside from a few minor things, like amino acid creation. It really reminds me of someone kicking a few loose bricks out of the Great Wall of China, and declaring that the entire 1500-mile long structure has been reduced to rubble. Like it or not, the independent existence of life is not possible within the current parameters of science. And because atheism relies on science, it's like a building with girders made of dynamite, destroyed by what it relies on for support. And while the garden variety atheist simply doesn't acknowledge this, his more educated contemporary believes that one day in the future, through humanity's increased understanding of science, the explanation will emerge.


In short, properly examined atheism requires a person to believe in the existence of an undiscovered and unverified scientific principle that runs 180 degrees against current ones, something that makes the impossible possible (not unlike God, when you think about it). Therefore, whatever you might think, it is a faith.
 
Proponents of atheism call this the Watchmaker argument, and they bluster that it has been repeatedly debunked, but they cannot tell us how or why, aside from a few minor things, like amino acid creation. It really reminds me of someone kicking a few loose bricks out of the Great Wall of China, and declaring that the entire 1500-mile long structure has been reduced to rubble. Like it or not, the independent existence of life is not possible within the current parameters of science. And because atheism relies on science, it's like a building with girders made of dynamite, destroyed by what it relies on for support. And while the garden variety atheist simply doesn't acknowledge this, his more educated contemporary believes that one day in the future, through humanity's increased understanding of science, the explanation will emerge.


In short, properly examined atheism requires a person to believe in the existence of an undiscovered and unverified scientific principle that runs 180 degrees against current ones, something that makes the impossible possible (not unlike God, when you think about it). Therefore, whatever you might think, it is a faith.
Lack of certain knowledge is not the same as faith. We don't need faith to know life was created somehow, since, as life exists, it is a fact that life was created somehow. We may not know with certainty how it was created, but that does not change the fact that it was created. Actually, we may never know for certain. To quote Neil DeGrasse Tyson, the universe is under no obligation to make sense to you.
 
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