One question I want to know is, does anyone have any idea where Khitomer is supposed to be? I know where the "Star Charts" book puts it but somehow it doesn't seem right based off of the events in star Trek VI.
How fast is warp speed?
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
- Start date
(Shrugs)
Seemed right to me--that the division between the Alpha and Beta Quadrants lay somewhere between Earth and Qo'noS, with Khitomer being on the Beta Quadrant side.
While I like Star Charts and think it's a great reference book for writing Trek stories and what have you, it can't ever be taken as the definitive word as where things are in the Star Trek Universe--no reference book can, really, due to the nature of things being frequently changed for dramatic necessity in later productions. As a result, the collected onscreen material suggests that the Klingon Empire spans both the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, IMO, so your actual mileage may vary...
Khitomer: Turn left 12 light years past Delta Vega and carry on past Nazi Germany Planet and Roman Planet, go on for another 12 light years then turn right past the other Delta Vega, then head galactic "up" after slingshotting around the Ghetto Planet Tasha Grew Up On, and carry on past the Delta Triangle.
Okay?
Okay?
...We might divine something from the apparent fact that this planet is "neutral ground" in ST6:TUC yet a solid Klingon colony in the Worf backstory, though.
What planet anywhere near UFP and Klingon territories could stay "neutral" during the cold or lukewarm war of the TOS movie era? We might deduce that Khitomer must have been sitting "safely" in Romulan space, equidistant from the two warring sides, and that Romulans provided the conference venue in ST6:TUC as part of their divide-and-conquer campaign (explaining why their yellow banners are so prominent in the summit next to the blue and red ones of the main combatants), yet lost the location to the hated Klingons soon thereafter and then tried to regain it as described in the Worf backstory.
Alternately, we could note that there were actually four prominent banner colors in the summit: green was also worn, by human-looking folks who had an aurora symbol of some sort on their flag. Perhaps these were the "native" Khitomerians (colonists, whatever), distinct enough from Earth humans that Klingons would accept the location as neutral - and Romulans acted as intermediators, offering the venue via an agreement with the Khitomerians. Perhaps Khitomer was something like Sherman's Planet, and the contest for managing that world had been won by humans - but the price had been that they had to become "neutral" and be cut off from UFP proper. Their little "Planet of Galactic Peace #47" would then be an attractive conference venue, probably inside the Neutral Zone that apparently lay between UFP and Klingon space during TUC.
Timo Saloniemi
What planet anywhere near UFP and Klingon territories could stay "neutral" during the cold or lukewarm war of the TOS movie era? We might deduce that Khitomer must have been sitting "safely" in Romulan space, equidistant from the two warring sides, and that Romulans provided the conference venue in ST6:TUC as part of their divide-and-conquer campaign (explaining why their yellow banners are so prominent in the summit next to the blue and red ones of the main combatants), yet lost the location to the hated Klingons soon thereafter and then tried to regain it as described in the Worf backstory.
Alternately, we could note that there were actually four prominent banner colors in the summit: green was also worn, by human-looking folks who had an aurora symbol of some sort on their flag. Perhaps these were the "native" Khitomerians (colonists, whatever), distinct enough from Earth humans that Klingons would accept the location as neutral - and Romulans acted as intermediators, offering the venue via an agreement with the Khitomerians. Perhaps Khitomer was something like Sherman's Planet, and the contest for managing that world had been won by humans - but the price had been that they had to become "neutral" and be cut off from UFP proper. Their little "Planet of Galactic Peace #47" would then be an attractive conference venue, probably inside the Neutral Zone that apparently lay between UFP and Klingon space during TUC.
Timo Saloniemi
Well it'd have to be less than a day away from the Alpha Quadrant border. Sulu mentions that the conference starts "today" and that the Excelsior has just entered the Alpha Quadrant. It's why its position in the Star Charts book threw me off, I doubt the 23rd century Excelsior could travel almost four sectors in that time.
It only took Archer's Enterprise four days to travel from Earth, and it was presumably traveling far slower than the Excelsior flying towards Khitomer at maximum warp. The Excelsior reaching Khitomer in less than a day doesn't seem out of place in that regard.
First rule of determing warp speeds is that they vary due to dramatic necessity, IMO. Some ships can travel up to 1500 times faster than the values expressed in the so-called TOS or TNG warp scales.
To that extent, I tend to favor the idea of "warp highways" or "subspace shortcuts" (also mentioned in passing in Star Charts) as euphemisms for "plot drive"...
First rule of determing warp speeds is that they vary due to dramatic necessity, IMO. Some ships can travel up to 1500 times faster than the values expressed in the so-called TOS or TNG warp scales.
To that extent, I tend to favor the idea of "warp highways" or "subspace shortcuts" (also mentioned in passing in Star Charts) as euphemisms for "plot drive"...
I can accept warp highways, which are initially speedy, but "wear down" with too much use.
.75 ly per hour. By the time of TNG, probably 1 ly per hour.
Yup: anything in the ballpark of lightyears per hour would be fine for short dashes or medium-range sailing.
On the long-time average, when the ship stays on the move for weeks or months at an end, the suggested 1,000 ly/y (or 0,11 ly/h) seems to cover all the necessary bases. Except for the idea that the ship would actually reach the galactic center in ST5 and "Magicks of Megas-Tu", but I don't consider those "necessary". A journey towards the center would suffice to meet the dialogue requirements of those two stories.
Timo Saloniemi
On the long-time average, when the ship stays on the move for weeks or months at an end, the suggested 1,000 ly/y (or 0,11 ly/h) seems to cover all the necessary bases. Except for the idea that the ship would actually reach the galactic center in ST5 and "Magicks of Megas-Tu", but I don't consider those "necessary". A journey towards the center would suffice to meet the dialogue requirements of those two stories.
Timo Saloniemi
It is annoying that they would be so careless with the internal consistency of the Trek universe, but we can presume that subspace has some kind of currents within it, that warp factor is the size of the warp field generated, but the actual speed is subject to subspace conditions. We already know that it is possible to destroy regions of subspace (VOY: Omega Directive) so it is not too much of a leap to presume that there may be currents or variable conditions. It would be better to have had this explained on screen when they messed with the warp-speeds but it'll have to do...
What I really want to know is how relativistic time is not distorted when they are travelling faster than light.
What I really want to know is how relativistic time is not distorted when they are travelling faster than light.
If the ship is inside a warp bubble, time passes at the same rate as if they were in flat space-time.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Back on page one, someone said that the idea of subspace "topography" was an invention of the books. Actually, fandom came up with a variant of it (the "warp highway") theory years before that, and a Voyager ep even went so far as to feature a "Subspace Sandbar" that got the ship quite stuck...
YARN
Fleet Captain
Good point. I saw a YouTube video the other day which jokingly argues that the last Trek film basically rips off Star Wars: A New Hope. Here is another coincidence. I recall the Falcon dropping out of hyperspace to find Alderan [Sic] destroyed (debris everywhere and then encountering the planet killer itself).
This is, however, one change that I can live with. It allows for narrative surprises like we saw in the film. It fits physics better - instead of doing techno-babble to explain sensors that probe faster than the speed of light you simply stick with the primary conceit of traveling faster than light.
Comparisons to BSG spring to mind as well. I recall Gaeta being praised for his precision jump the Ragnar Anchorage (a Gas giant). Compare that to Chekov plotting how to precisely come out of war in the atmosphere of Titan orbiting the gas giant Saturn. In the old days, you had sensors that told you if you were being followed. Now, it seems that you only risk detection when you drop out of warp.
Hmh? During the run to Vulcan, Pike seems to assume that it would be perfectly possible to communicate with the rest of the fleet while everybody is at warp. When he orders such communications, his comm officer tells him that the others have already arrived at Vulcan, indicating either that such knowledge indeed is available to him or that he's a lying psychopath. He then proceeds to hail the others anyway, again indicating either that warp-to-standstill comms are possible or that he's a lying psychopath.
All this is consistent with what was seen in TOS or elsewhere in Trek. This includes the inability to tell that there is a cloud of dead starships ahead, until one is in that cloud, as per "BoBW". In order to observe a dead starship or her scattered remains from appreciable distance, one needs special circumstances, such as in "Conspiracy" where an apparent warp core explosion prompted our heroes to examine a quadrant (a volume smaller than a sector) at impulse speeds and locate the debris cloud remaining of the Horatio. If one misses the initial explosions (as one would if they were hidden behind Vulcan), one isn't likely to spot any debris, either.
Timo Saloniemi
All this is consistent with what was seen in TOS or elsewhere in Trek. This includes the inability to tell that there is a cloud of dead starships ahead, until one is in that cloud, as per "BoBW". In order to observe a dead starship or her scattered remains from appreciable distance, one needs special circumstances, such as in "Conspiracy" where an apparent warp core explosion prompted our heroes to examine a quadrant (a volume smaller than a sector) at impulse speeds and locate the debris cloud remaining of the Horatio. If one misses the initial explosions (as one would if they were hidden behind Vulcan), one isn't likely to spot any debris, either.
But you have to mumbo-jumbo your ability to communicate at FTL anyway. And audiences of today will smell the rat if communications cannot be used for sensing. After all, they're thoroughly familiar with the concept of radar, and will expect that to work with "subspace radio waves" as well - even if it could very plausibly be argued that such a thing might not be possible. FTL sensors are implicit when FTL comms exist, and the writers will then have to technobabble their way out of FTL sensors, not into them.
Timo Saloniemi
Federation ships are fitted with subspace transponders allowing other Federation ships to track each other so this should allow them to liaise even at warp. The transponders automatically emit emergency signals like black boxes if a ship is severely damaged or destroyed. If the Enterprise could not detect the transponder signals while at warp due to the jamming at Vulcan, this should have tipped off Pike straight away, no hesitation. In my view, it was very foolish not to drop out of warp at a greater distance to survey the situation first.
Where would this be indicated?
I don't think we have ever heard of such an emergency signal being emitted. In TOS, starships simply disappeared until another ship retraced their journey or otherwise stumbled onto them. A relatively unharmed ship might start emitting an emergency call if the skipper pressed the appropriate button with the last of his strength, I guess. That seems to be what happened with the Jenolan in "Relics", for example.
Agreed that coming out of warp on low Vulcan orbit was a bit odd. A quick way to come to the help of Vulcans suffering on the surface, I guess. But the fleet would have had two theories on what was going on:
1) Vulcan suffers from "seismic disturbances" (say, the attack of a planet-gobbling monster) so the entire surface is in chaos and can't send signals
2) Something else is going on
In the latter case, sending a single ship to scout first would be prudent. But in the former, every second might count...
Timo Saloniemi
Didn't the Constellation, near where the 3rd or 4th planet would have been have it's disaster beacon on and the Enterprise picked it up and spotted it with sensors as it entered the limits of the star system they were searching? It seemed pretty reasonable that the Enterprise was still at warp when entering the system and when making final approach to the Constellation given how quickly they crossed the distance.
The better reason why the E-D did't realize that there is a mess of destroyed ships in front of them was probably because they didn't know where to look with the short time they had to scan the area on warp approach.
The TOS Enterprise had no problem checking out planets and outposts while at minutes away high warp but spotting errant ships and/or people required knowing where to look.
ST:XI is a little different in that the carnage literally was right in the Enterprise's path which in TOS the ship usually would alert the crew and automatically raise shields well before they ran into it
The better reason why the E-D did't realize that there is a mess of destroyed ships in front of them was probably because they didn't know where to look with the short time they had to scan the area on warp approach.
The TOS Enterprise had no problem checking out planets and outposts while at minutes away high warp but spotting errant ships and/or people required knowing where to look.
ST:XI is a little different in that the carnage literally was right in the Enterprise's path which in TOS the ship usually would alert the crew and automatically raise shields well before they ran into it
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