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How does the Talosian's "illusion power" work?

Anders2

Cadet
Newbie
When I watch "The Cage", I keep wondering what the Talosians are actually capable of. If I try to break down the "illusion power" I end up with the following abilities
  • tricking the senses of people (so they see, hear, feel, smell and taste what the Talosians want them to) - they even have a monitor showing a picture of the illusion
  • reading the minds of people (as long as there are no primitive emotions)
  • a "Multiplayer Mode", so multiple people can share and interact inside the same illusion
  • some kind of "Health illusion", so the disabled Vina is suddenly capable of moving like a young girl
Especially the last ability keeps me wondering, how it can be accomplished by the Talosians. It is said, that they couldn't "repair" Vina because of her unknown anatomy, but they can somehow trick her to move like a healthy young girl. Or do we only see an image of Vina throughout the episode, while the "real Vina" stays motionless in a cell of her own?

This brings me to the related question: How would a observer see Pike in his cell while he is in his illusions of Rigel, Earth, ..? When I think of it, there are 3 possibilities:
  1. He disappears when an illusion begins (implied by the disappearing Vina when she is punished by the Talosians)
  2. He's still in the cell, moving around like in the illusions. So he's walking, fighting and talking to the air. (implied by the whole "they can make the crew push the wrong buttons"-threat)
  3. He's still in the cell, but paralyzed and without motion, having just the illusion of movement (implied by his last illusion, when Number One and Yeoman Colt arrive)
All of those possibilities seem to be inconsistent with one scene or another of "the Cage".

Do you have a theory how the Talosian's "illusion ability" work?
 
2 ways: I figure the people are unconscious and immobile during the illusion scenarios like Rigel 7, and and are basically dreaming; Simpler illusions, like pushing the wrong button and not seeing the hilltop sheered off, are more like hypnotic suggestions into their waking minds while they're moving about.
 
Yeah, if the Talosians have a "2 Mode"-Power like that, that makes sense. That would add one more to the "powers list" above :)

But how are they able to create the "health illusion" for Vina? Since she's not an illusion herself, either she sits in her own cell the whole episode (in this case: how can she decide to leave or stay on the planet in the end?) or she's really with Pike (in this case: how can she move like a healthy girl?)
 
Yeah, if the Talosians have a "2 Mode"-Power like that, that makes sense. That would add one more to the "powers list" above :)

But how are they able to create the "health illusion" for Vina? Since she's not an illusion herself, either she sits in her own cell the whole episode (in this case: how can she decide to leave or stay on the planet in the end?) or she's really with Pike (in this case: how can she move like a healthy girl?)

I think she was really with Pike at strategic points throughout the episode as well as at the end. Though not necessarily through out the rest of the episode. Remember, the entire point of the illusions with Vina was copulation. So Vina had to be physically present at least at the point where that was to occur. Though all of the stuff we see her do(dancing, running, etc.) was probably just an illusion.
 
Good question! I have to admit I hadn't thought about it that much.

There must be some kind of group mind, not because each lacks their own personality, but because from the story it seems whole groups of Talosians can "tune in" to the dreams and fantasies of their subjects, like watching a good tv show or playing a MMORPG, it can be so absorbing you don't even go to work, just tune in to the latest illusion. Talosians all over the planet were interested in the new subject, so maybe when a large group is in tune they can transmit waking illusions but when one of the subjects is in a fantasy they just watch and experience it.
 
Another question is whether technology is involved, or is it all coming from the Talosians' organic brain power, like Vulcan telepathy. The episode seems to imply mere telepathy, but the power to reach across the cosmos and affect people on Starbase 11 suggests technology.
 
I did assume a while ago that the Talosians could boost their powers by acting in concert, hence the extreme-range Mendez illusion.
 
Don't we see the two creatures (in the Cage, not later Menagerie) moving around in their cages, apparently engrossed in some illusory activity/interaction?
 
But how are they able to create the "health illusion" for Vina? Since she's not an illusion herself, either she sits in her own cell the whole episode (in this case: how can she decide to leave or stay on the planet in the end?) or she's really with Pike (in this case: how can she move like a healthy girl?)

I thought she said "all the parts work"; i.e. she's physically functional and healthy, just hideously scarred?
 
I thought she said "all the parts work"; i.e. she's physically functional and healthy, just hideously scarred?
Yes, you are right. Obviously, the outer appearance seems to be quite harder to "rebuild" than the inner organs and all body functions :). So, it could be really her and not only an image of her.

Don't we see the two creatures (in the Cage, not later Menagerie) moving around in their cages, apparently engrossed in some illusory activity/interaction?
We'll see those creatures, but there's no hint whether they are experiencing illusions or just ranging around like a tiger in the cage.
If Pikes movements inside the illusions are real (and really he moves like that in his cell), then he should have bumped into the walls multiple times (alone his long way from the outside to the inside of the castle in the Rigel illusion).

I really prefer Forbin's "2 mode" theory. They could be comparable to the differentiation between AR and VR today.
  • AR-Mode: The Talosians project things or people into the real surrounding of the people (like the survivor camp or the non-destroyed hilltop). Here the movements of the people are real. If they would have tried, they could have gone through the illusions.
  • VR-Mode: The Talosians create a whole new environment for the people (like Rigel, Earth or the Orion colony). Here even the movements are an illusion and really the people stay paralyzed in place.

Another question is whether technology is involved, or is it all coming from the Talosians' organic brain power, like Vulcan telepathy. The episode seems to imply mere telepathy, but the power to reach across the cosmos and affect people on Starbase 11 suggests technology.

There is talk of the Talosian's machines, which they cannot repair themselves anymore. Unfortunately, it's never sepcified what these machines are made for. We see only few technological things down at the Talosians cave:
  • there must be a machine to maintain fresh air and so on
  • the Talosians have this strange "powder gun", which stuns Pike in the beginning
  • the Talosians have a monitor, but that's quite a monitor! It doesn't only show images of somewhere else but it shows images of Pike inside his illusions. So it can create an objective image of the illusions.
 
I thought she said "all the parts work"; i.e. she's physically functional and healthy, just hideously scarred?

And hunched. Everything works, but everything wasn't repaired to factory spec. She apparently had issues with skeletal structure
 
It is plausible that the ability to contact Starbase 11 and alter the viewscreen on the Enterprise was not technological. Merely, it may be an extension of Forbin's AR-Mode, just projected on a technological object. I agree, with Zap Brannigan though, that reaching across the Galaxy without technology seems a bit of a stretch.
  • AR-Mode: The Talosians project things or people into the real surrounding of the people (like the survivor camp or the non-destroyed hilltop). Here the movements of the people are real. If they would have tried, they could have gone through the illusions.
 
What if Vena's disfigurement was an illusion and she was really just fine but this was a last ditch attempt by the Talosians to get Pike to stay OR get Pike out of there ASAP so they could lure another ship in.

I really prefer Forbin's "2 mode" theory. They could be comparable to the differentiation between AR and VR today.
  • AR-Mode: The Talosians project things or people into the real surrounding of the people (like the survivor camp or the non-destroyed hilltop). Here the movements of the people are real. If they would have tried, they could have gone through the illusions.
  • VR-Mode: The Talosians create a whole new environment for the people (like Rigel, Earth or the Orion colony). Here even the movements are an illusion and really the people stay paralyzed in place.

But even these two probably blend together. Because while they could have in theory gone through the illusions if they tried. They probably would have just had illusions fed back to them making them think and feel that they touched, rather than passed through, the illusions.
 
Let us not forget that Vina was an adult crew woman on the original flight and not the teenage girl that Pike was first attracted to. so unless human biology has changed significantly in the next three hundred years then I'd say that Vina was in her late sixties at least by the time of Kirk's visit to Talos IV, so outside of child bearing age. Unless the Talosians retained the technology to achieve that feat? :vulcan:
JB
 
@johnnybear: true, Vina wasn't a young woman in "the Cage" anymore, but I don't think that she's that old. Number One only says that Vina was "an adult crewman" when the Columbia crashed on Talos IV. If she had been, for example, a junior crewwoman aged 20, she would only be 38 in "the Cage". So she still could get children, if her organs were really put together correctly by the Talosians after the crash.
 
"Couple hundred billion brain cells in your skull. You got more synapses than stars in the universe. You are a fancy hand terminal. With a lot of buttons. Now, I push a few trillion of them buttons in exactly the right way and, ta-da...I'm trying to keep things simple here for you, okay? Calculus, amoeba. Monkey, Mozart."
 
@johnnybear: true, Vina wasn't a young woman in "the Cage" anymore, but I don't think that she's that old. Number One only says that Vina was "an adult crewman" when the Columbia crashed on Talos IV. If she had been, for example, a junior crewwoman aged 20, she would only be 38 in "the Cage". So she still could get children, if her organs were really put together correctly by the Talosians after the crash.

True, Anders, but she'd be 51 in The Menagerie and perhaps even a little older!
JB
 
Remarkably, the whole premise of the adventure is that the Talosians are presenting the heroes with falsehoods. Their explicated agenda really is more likely to be one of those than not!

That Vina would be capable of bearing children is debatable; so is her continuing existence as of the time of the adventure, or indeed the existence of the Columbia expedition in the first place. All of this is sort of academic in light of the greater (un)truth of it all, though. If the Talosians truly wanted a slave race, they wouldn't need to rely on Vina or Pike, but could command any or all of the hundreds of people in the ship to start breeding for them. Or, as we later learn, order all the good folks of SB 11 to start doing it, and inviting people from all across the Federation to participate. In that scenario, the games with Pike and Vina would be purely for initial testing purposes. And the tests may indeed have turned out negative, so out of the two choices here, of the Talosians getting their slave race (and the heroes / the audience not noticing) or them dropping the project, the latter could be true. It's just that we have no way of telling.

Given the great powers of the Talosians, though, it's difficult to believe they wouldn't have succeeded with their slave race project - indeed, that they wouldn't have done so centuries ago already, with all sorts of species including the allegedly strong-willed but demonstrably harmless humans if need be.

Choosing to believe their words thus involves attempting to reduce the scope of their powers. "Making people press the wrong buttons" was Spock's probably erroneous speculation. Perhaps the Talosians use crude machinery to interfere with starships, allowing them to scan the files but not to truly initiate autodestruct; we know that merely projecting illusions (such as the black hole in "If Memory Serves") is not sufficient for making the heroes do harm to their own ship or endeavor.

If all the Talosians do is make people dream controlled dreams (perhaps even through the use of machinery, which involves e.g. the viewscreen they were gawking at, and not their pulsating brains, which are merely the control interface for the machinery), they could achieve what we have seen them achieve (by definition!) but not half the things they claimed they could achieve, and they could indeed be fumbling with a slave race project. Or pretending to be fumbling with a scary project like this, to cover the fact that they aren't really capable of anything much and simply want to be left alone with their dream machines.

In the latter case, their act of luring in Pike could be part of a greater scheme to keep the expanding Federation from engulfing their planet, an efficient step in the wanting-to.be-left-alone project where merely letting Pike fly past would not be. But that would be a convoluted interpretation and thus not superior to the other convoluted interpretation, that of taking the liars for their word against seeming evidence...

So in the end, we might never know. We get three takes on these guys, and with every one, their powers (say, their range) just seem to grow, while with every one, an artificial-sounding limitation also pops up. The one judgement call I'd feel safe making here is not to trust any of the seeming evidence, and to treat every Talosian claim as a lie. But with born liars, that latter bet may not be safe after all.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I think the Talosians wanted a race similar to themselves somewhat rather than some of the large beasties they had caged up down in the Menagerie! Even though they had never seen an earth man before they were more like them than not than the other inmates surely?
JB
 
Hmm. And how did the Talosians know where Discocery was located to send a Vina-gram to Pike? Spock did not know and Burnham’s info would be outdated. Perhaps there is tech (that’s better than Starfleet tech) or they have a locator capability on Pike given the first visit.
 
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