After growing up and becoming a diehard Niner, TNG is mostly meh with some great moments. PIC is mostly great with some very meh moments (and a small handful of facepalm-worthy elements.) PIC is more like DS9 than TNG. Coincidence? I think not!
How do you compare PIC to TNG?
- Thread starter Lord Garth
- Start date
Picard is easily, hands-down, the best new Star Trek production of any kind I've seen in over 20 years.
It does what Discovery tried, but bungled badly: brings the sophisticated storytelling techniques of contemporary "prestige TV" to the Trek universe. IMHO Michael Chabon is a creative genius.
That said, some context is necessary: PIC very consciously doesn't try to be its own "new thing" to nearly the same extent as TNG (or indeed any previous Trek production). It depends strongly on story and character callbacks, and the emotional resonances they carry, from a show that hasn't been on the air in nearly 30 years. If you're not familiar with TNG, then you're simply not going to have any sense of connection with PIC.
This is important to recognize going in. My girlfriend is new to to Trek (any flavor). Last year we began a comprehensive (re)watch of TOS... but with PIC on the horizon, early this year we switched over to TNG so as to lay the groundwork. We didn't do a full seven-season rewatch (heaven forbid!), just a curated selection of episodes designed to hit the highlights, the major character and story beats. It amounted to 32 episodes spread over seven seasons (well, six... nothing from S1 at all), and honestly that covered pretty much all of TNG that was worth rewatching.
It did the job. She enjoyed it all (really loved "All Good Things"!), and we both went on to thoroughly enjoy PIC. She also pointed out the interesting ways PIC stepped up its game, brought a new sensibility that fits the present day, in ways evocative of prestige shows like Game of Thrones and Westworld.
So I would say PIC stands impressively as a distinctive thing, built lovingly on the foundation of what went before in TNG, but reaching new heights. (And let's be honest: built on the best 20%. The remaining 80% of TNG is thoroughly forgettable, and always was.)
It does what Discovery tried, but bungled badly: brings the sophisticated storytelling techniques of contemporary "prestige TV" to the Trek universe. IMHO Michael Chabon is a creative genius.
That said, some context is necessary: PIC very consciously doesn't try to be its own "new thing" to nearly the same extent as TNG (or indeed any previous Trek production). It depends strongly on story and character callbacks, and the emotional resonances they carry, from a show that hasn't been on the air in nearly 30 years. If you're not familiar with TNG, then you're simply not going to have any sense of connection with PIC.
This is important to recognize going in. My girlfriend is new to to Trek (any flavor). Last year we began a comprehensive (re)watch of TOS... but with PIC on the horizon, early this year we switched over to TNG so as to lay the groundwork. We didn't do a full seven-season rewatch (heaven forbid!), just a curated selection of episodes designed to hit the highlights, the major character and story beats. It amounted to 32 episodes spread over seven seasons (well, six... nothing from S1 at all), and honestly that covered pretty much all of TNG that was worth rewatching.
It did the job. She enjoyed it all (really loved "All Good Things"!), and we both went on to thoroughly enjoy PIC. She also pointed out the interesting ways PIC stepped up its game, brought a new sensibility that fits the present day, in ways evocative of prestige shows like Game of Thrones and Westworld.
So I would say PIC stands impressively as a distinctive thing, built lovingly on the foundation of what went before in TNG, but reaching new heights. (And let's be honest: built on the best 20%. The remaining 80% of TNG is thoroughly forgettable, and always was.)
That’s all series. If you’re a fan, you’re not going to not watch that remaining 80%.
It depends on what people like. Some might like episodes others might not.
All of it is awesome??? O_o
Pakleds, the death penalty on a supposedly idealic planet, Beverly Crusher having a romance with a ghost, a casino recreation, Q as a trickster putting the crew through games...?
Man, I know I'm a fan of a lot of things but even I can acknowledge when something is not good.
Pakleds, the death penalty on a supposedly idealic planet, Beverly Crusher having a romance with a ghost, a casino recreation, Q as a trickster putting the crew through games...?
Man, I know I'm a fan of a lot of things but even I can acknowledge when something is not good.
Yes, I understand that. I was just curious as to the rationale behind said opinion. Saying "All of TNG is awesome" is odd to me, given that there ups and downs to every series.
Comparing Picard to TNG is tricky for me because of the format of the show. I was thinking about comparing PIC to the 10 episode DS9 finale but I don't think that works either.
But if I had to give Picard S1 an abstract gut-feeling comparison of quality, I'd put it on par with late-TNG. I like it but it doesn't completely do it for me.
But if I had to give Picard S1 an abstract gut-feeling comparison of quality, I'd put it on par with late-TNG. I like it but it doesn't completely do it for me.
Star Trek - The Next Generation, best television series ever.
Star Trek - Picard, doesn't interest me at all.
Star Trek - Picard, doesn't interest me at all.
I agree. I like all TNG episodes except Shades of Gray. I can see how some may not like certain episodes, but as a self-described TNG fan I guess I see what they were going for in every episode. Are some better than others. Of course.
While overall I liked Picard, I just don't understand why everything now has to be dark. I loved TNG for its optimism and hope for a better future - not perfect, but better. Most new TV shows now feel they have to be dark, edgy, sarcastic and sometimes downright mean and rude. While I too can sometimes enjoy those elements, I don't like my beloved characters being transformed and thrown into such dark shows. Just my opinion. One can disagree with me.
What amuses me about complaints about the dark is the idea that these characters have never been through this before, which is just odd. I mean, one of THE top rated TNG episodes is "Best of Both Worlds." When it aired there was no idea whether Picard would love or die at the end of part 1 and the beginning of part 2. That's optimistic? O_o
And, Shades of Grey, involves probably the most horrific rationale of using clips to my mind. In order for Riker to be cured of the virus (or whatever) he has to revisit painful and scary memories. Again, I struggles to put that within the optimistic framework of TNG.
I'm not saying people don't need to like Picard. You can like whatever. I just wish people would recognize that the larger themes in Picard were all dealt with in TNG and other beloved Trek shows.
And, Shades of Grey, involves probably the most horrific rationale of using clips to my mind. In order for Riker to be cured of the virus (or whatever) he has to revisit painful and scary memories. Again, I struggles to put that within the optimistic framework of TNG.
I'm not saying people don't need to like Picard. You can like whatever. I just wish people would recognize that the larger themes in Picard were all dealt with in TNG and other beloved Trek shows.
I can't compare, they're both separate shows despite some characters returning. The producer said as such too:
https://comicbook.com/startrek/2019/12/29/star-trek-picard-next-generation-not-a-sequel/
That said, @Sci had an interesting point in the use of the word "deconstructivist".
1: Mid-TNG (seasons 2-4)
2: Early-TNG (season 1)
3: Latter-TNG (seasons 5-7), of which season 7 alone prevents this category from being a tie with:
4: TNG movies (GEN was the best, which was still a mixed bag, and FC's gloss doesn't hold up after even one viewing)
5: PIC
https://comicbook.com/startrek/2019/12/29/star-trek-picard-next-generation-not-a-sequel/
That said, @Sci had an interesting point in the use of the word "deconstructivist".
1: Mid-TNG (seasons 2-4)
2: Early-TNG (season 1)
3: Latter-TNG (seasons 5-7), of which season 7 alone prevents this category from being a tie with:
4: TNG movies (GEN was the best, which was still a mixed bag, and FC's gloss doesn't hold up after even one viewing)
5: PIC
I still prefer TNG. PICARD had its moments but the ball was dropped with the last ep.
Been watching TNG after several years of not seeing an episode. It's even better than I remember. Sure there are some bad eps but there are so many good character moments. Something that is missing from Discovery. I just hope they fix some of the issues with Picard next season. There was lots to like though.
Been watching TNG after several years of not seeing an episode. It's even better than I remember. Sure there are some bad eps but there are so many good character moments. Something that is missing from Discovery. I just hope they fix some of the issues with Picard next season. There was lots to like though.
That's true for any show, regardless of how much one (dis)likes it.
It had its moments of greatness (Frakes could sell anything and in PIC he just about did. Even "Bunnicorns", a hybrid of bunny rabbit and (a unicorn, of all things...)
Fads are inevitable - the 1960s had over the top happy camp and silly happy endings for shows. Mid-80s had mercenaries and cynicism all over the place. The late-80s sold gore. Shows that didn't dive into the same well to the same level and/or did something different may have been more interesting, but were not as well-liked.
And it's not just a just but a style. Too wild a style change, especially during a season, can be jarring for many. "Too dark" or what not, keeping the style and feel the same is to its credit. one doesn't need to like it to recognize strengths as well as weaknesses, which every show ever made has got.
And then there's the argument of people changing over time, which is true. How quickly and under what circumstances is key. Turning Seven into the Terminator with heavy machine guns being rattled off from both hands simultaneously, on target and without the need for Borg technology to assist, is hilarious because I couldn't buy into that from any human. For more interesting incongruities, Major Grin and Red Letter Media have a field day... the former even covers previous eras' discontinuities too, which is refreshing. But that's an old argument too.
Let's look at the bigger picture - surrounding episodes and create a simple chart and ratio. I don't need to TLDR to shred that claim out of the ballpark.
But I will say TBOBW was a one-off and was fairly tame by 1989 standards. And the show didn't have a history of killing its lead characters every week - more fake-out deaths than anything, and even those were few because they're cheesy and desensitizing the audience with more of the same... With PIC it's buckets of pottymouth and gore in every single episode. Which is not to say the style doesn't work, look at 1988-1990 "War of the Worlds" TV series, which also used more gore than what the norm at the time and a lot more than TNG would ever consider. So the format isn't new by any means.
It's also how they sold the suspense and drama in TNG. How it feels. I figured out long before the stored uniform in that illogically oversized cupboard that Picard would be a Borg (like it was an oh-so-hard thing to figure out) but was still enthralled at how they presented it.
Like how Doctor Who played up sappy emotion sparingly - once a season at most for its original run... vs the "must outdo the shlocky sap for every new episode" that was the norm in 2005.
Never mind TBOBW did something that wasn't seen before. A new combination of elements, many tried and true but not all. The closest (if not only!) example is "Doctor Who" where a perceived villain was converted into a Cyberman, and the Doctor found out Lytton wasn't a true baddie after all (just a mercenary, and 80s shows - American and UK - were loaded with those as well. Fads are inevitable, how to keep each show using them fresh and engaging is another matter, on top of everything else.)
For many audiences older than 17, it's all been done before and with more innovation and twists. That's why younger demographics are aimed at - it does get harder to use tropes in different ways.
Nor is relying on generic sci-fi material a new concept either; "Sliders" had a third season that was relegated to the same generic plots - and fans of the show at the time didn't like the new direction it took. Nor did the new style attract more and more new viewers to compensate.
Considering they had no choice but to make a clip show due to time and other constraints, chiefly the writers' strike clobbered and hobbled a lot of TNG's second year (and part of the first!), that's a bit unfair. Then again, PIC has had nine executive producers for its sole season so far, and DSC has up to, what, 30 or so by now. for its two... want a case against optimism? TNG and TOS had fewer...
But, yes, season 2 was darker. It also didn't need to do what "War of the Worlds" was doing at the same time. Balance is yet another ingredient in this cake. Should "Q WHO" show 18 corpses turning blue in space, and in great whacking close-up detail the way an episode of "The Orville" had?
On the flip-side, Hugh greeting Jean-Luc again was an awesome scene. Yes, there's another situation somewhere that has Hugh realizing his angst may have been misplaced. But there's genuine optimism and a great feel to that scene...
Yes, and the larger themes were all done before in TNG - and better. (even TMP had the scale of visual effects, which were new and innovative and didn't require inspiration from a video game... which isn't to say inspiration and influence are bad but what else is or isn't it bringing to the table to make it more than the sum of its parts? Not to mention individual audience viewer expectations as well, and how far the LCD goes.)
Indeed, PIC trying this new format gets some kudos for not having done it before.
(Apart from when mixing in animal names like "Bunnicorns" (really!) rather than something with some authentic-sounding taxonomy that's more consistent, and less cartoonish, especially when juxtaposed with the uberdark being presented... for an ostensibly adult show, it's almost bipolar - if not outright juvenile - in various moments when it crouches down to toddler level in some issues. But nothing's going to be 100%. )
That's fair that it was done better. No where did I claim that PIC was somehow superior to TNG, though I personally have found more enjoyment in revisiting PIC over TNG, but that's personal preference.
What you touched upon further illustrates my point-the darkness of PIC is no darker than TNG. However, your other point of contrast is perhaps more apropos. That PIC lacked the contrast of intervening lighter episodes due to the serialized nature.
Regardless, it's been down before.
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