How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and TMP?

[The Rock]

And I don't mean the real life reason (like they had a bigger budget and stuff like that). I am referring to an in-universe reason.

I mean, TMP happens like four years after TOS ends right? For Starfleet to go from retro-looking uniforms and starship interiors that look like office building interiors to really futuristic-looking ones in just four years is bizarre. I mean the refit Enterprise looks like it doesn't even belong in the same universe as the original one after just four years! I would've understood if TMP took place like 20 years after TOS, however.

Have there been any novels or anything that talked about why Starfleet decided to go for such a drastic design change with everything (uniforms, interiors, and even the ships themselves)?

Again, I'm talking about an in-universe reason only. I don't want someone to tell me a real life reason such as, "Well it's because TOS was a TV show with a low budget while TMP was a big budget movie." Yes, I know that.

 

[Maurice]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

How about the simple: the ship set sail on its 5-year mission 7.5 years before the events in TMP, and (according to The Menagerie) the ship was already in operation for at least 11 years prior to the first season. The Enterprise was at minimum close to 20 years old by the time TMP happened, so it's not surprising that some elements of ship design might have changed in all that time. The TMP ship was a state-of-the-art redesign.

As to uniforms, uniforms change. Compare camo from the Vietman era to that of today. Doesn't look the same.

 

[chardman]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

It was freshly refitted. What other explanation is needed?

 

[Forbin]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Look at a typical Amercian fighter plane from 1945.
Now look at one from 1950.

Look at a fighter pilot's outfit from 1945.
No look at one from 1950...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Honestly, the is no believable excuse for EVERYTHING looking different. Not one computer interface anywhere resembles TOS, not one bit of technology has the same visual aesthetic.

I guess you could, at a push, say that they're at the point where technology meets art, and the way everything looks is purely the whim of the artists who oversee the design process. That's the only way you can justify how The Original Series looks if you take everything literally.

The way I see it, in-universe it's all much more the same and we the viewers are just seeing the future through a fresh set of eyes. The TOS Enterprise looks no more like painted plywood with paper pictures of screens stuck around the perimeter than a "real" Gorn looks like a guy in a bad rubber suit.

The same applies to STXI. It's not more advanced in-universe than TOS was, we're just seeing Trek world through the eyes of the 2010's, not the 1960's.

 

[Timo]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I mean, TMP happens like four years after TOS ends right?

Not necessarily. Could be anything up to eight years after, although six is probably a happy medium.

Also, during that time, the long conflict with the Klingons supposedly went on hiatus, thanks to the Organians. An excellent time for the military and the engineers to start toying with all sorts of new things that need technological and operational testing before they can be put to frontline use (and thus couldn't be fielded when the frontline constantly needed proven things).

In such an environment, I think "everything changes" is more plausible than "something changes". There'd be a desire to see everything modernized - and what couldn't be made more modern in terms of technology would at least be redecorated. Any visible patches of the old would be considered a shameful reminder of the fact that part of the Fleet is behind times.

Also, I don't think we can consider the change in style to be a mere "out-universe" shifting of perspective, because Trek after this supposed shift still returns to the TOS look whenever going back to the era of TOS. It also returns to the TMP (or ST2) look when depicting that era and context even when the overall look is the TNG one; this happens in "The Battle" already, even though it's obviously a cost-cutting measure rather than an example of TPTB pursuing an artistic vision at any cost.

Even the reboot movie actually takes pains to show us TOS like we saw it in the 1960s: the Kelvin goes retro with almost embarrassing accuracy, until the story jumps to a point where the writers can introduce the "Everything changed because of Nero, so we can change the curtains, too" rationale. Which is amusingly consistent with the TOS/TMP jump in that everything changes, and even changes towards the TMP look of gleaming white starships with art deco cheat lines and closs black control consoles - even if a decade too early.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Relayer1]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Stylistically (rather than technologically) it might just be down to prevailing trends such as the popularity and influence of Art Nouveau in the late 1890's. Fashion changed...

 

[Christopher]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I know you don't want metatextual answers, but this is sort of borderline: You could take the position that TMP represented what the technology "really" looked like all along, and the original show was just a rough approximation. In that theory, the differences between the eras aren't as great as they look to us. (This may have been the actual intent of the filmmakers; we know that Roddenberry wanted fans to accept that Klingons had always had bumpy foreheads and to ignore how TOS had depicted them.) The same principle could explain the apparent differences between the technology and designs in the Abrams movies and those in TOS.

In other words, it's like the difference between Kirstie Alley's appearance and Robin Curtis's, or between William Shatner's and Chris Pine's. In-universe, there is no difference (in the '09 movie, Spock Prime recognized Kirk and Scotty on sight); it's just when that hypothetical reality is interpreted by different real-world actors that there appears to us to be a difference. So by the same token, the differences we see in Starfleet technology and uniforms could be a difference in artistic interpretation rather than a "real" in-universe difference. This is also suggested by the way the Abrams Enterprise of 2258 has stylings resembling the TMP Enterprise of 2273. Maybe the "real" pre-refit Enterprise in the Prime universe already had some of the characteristic features of the refit design.

Under this theory, there would certainly have been some changes in design and technology between TOS and TMP -- that much is made clear in the film itself -- but it wouldn't be the wholesale, universal replacement that we saw. Rather, it would've been a more gradual or piecemeal change, with some things being altered and others remaining much the same, which is a more plausible kind of upgrade.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I took it to mean that when Kirk took command of the Enterprise, they'd already been using the uniforms for quite awhile, so that when the movie came around, they were ready for a uniform change, but like in TNG, where you saw much of a transition between different uniforms, particularly in Generations, I assume that there was a transition period too.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

If we use the approximate dates (or generally accepted dates.)

2245 Enterprise Launched
2254 Events of "The Cage" takes Place

A refit takes place

~2265 Five Year Mission under Cpt. Kirk under way

2269 Enterprise returns to Earth and undergoes major refit.

2272 V'Ger incident

So we have at least 20-27 years between when the ship was lauched. With a refit sometime within that period.

Technology can change drsatically in a few years.

Look at today's planes compared to the ones from even 10 years ago.

But even ingnoring that if the Enterprise was lauched in 2245 how old was that design anyway? The prototype Consitution Class could have been in service from the mid 2230's before the Enterprise was lauched. So the Class could have been designed in the 2220's. So all of a sudden we are talking possible 40-50 year old design.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I took it to mean that when Kirk took command of the Enterprise, they'd already been using the uniforms for quite awhile

The transition we missed, of course, was "Phase II". Have you seen Persis Khambatta's screen test pics? In a gold TOS uniform, in a slightly changed style?

And Chekov's shirt (sold in the "It's a Wrap!" eBay auctions) was red, showing his new career path: Head of Security. Other "Phase II" red tops were cannibalized in "Mork and Mindy".

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Honestly, I'm not sure an in-house explanation is necessary. Chalk it up to artistic license.

 

[Christopher]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

You may as well also ask why there's such a drastic difference in the two-and-half years between TMP and THE WRATH OF KHAN. KHAN's different Starfleet wardrobes are even more pronounced compared with TOS. We also know the real reasons this occurred.....

It's two and a half years in real life, but much longer in-universe. TMP came out a decade after TOS but was set only a few years later, pretending that the actors were younger than they were. But TWOK acknowledged the real passing of time since TOS. It's now generally accepted that TOS took place in 2273 (or late '72 at the earliest, since we know from VGR: "Q2" that Kirk's 5-year mission ended in 2270 and TMP is two and a half years later) and TWOK in 2285 (for unclear reasons, the Okuda Chronology moved it up to 18 years after "Space Seed" rather than the stated 15). So the in-story interval between TMP & TWOK is as much as a dozen years.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I took it to mean that when Kirk took command of the Enterprise, they'd already been using the uniforms for quite awhile

The transition we missed, of course, was "Phase II". Have you seen Persis Khambatta's screen test pics? In a gold TOS uniform, in a slightly changed style?

And Chekov's shirt (sold in the "It's a Wrap!" eBay auctions) was red, showing his new career path: Head of Security. Other "Phase II" red tops were cannibalized in "Mork and Mindy".

Oh right, of course we missed Phase II, which likely would have accounted for the uniform transition. Got a link to the screen test pics? Can't remember ever seeing them.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I actually like the explanation given in Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise that the ship's refit was atypical--it started off as an upgrade to merely the engines, but then that led to a number of compatibility problems that resulted in a total redesign of the vessel with other new technologies that were already on hand. The improvements first incorporated into the Enterprise were likely implemented throughout the rest of the Starfleet afterward, IMO.

As far as the change in uniforms, that's no real stretch. The TOS uniforms were only in service for 3 to 5 years (depending on what chronology you subscribe to), so changes in Starfleet uniforms after awhile aren't uncommon. This was definitely the case during the TNG/DS9/VOY era.

 

[sbk1234]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I figured that the Enterprise, as well as other ships were making lots of discoveries, and gaining even new technologies. By TMP time, what we're seeing is the application of these new technologies and advancements. The benefits, as it were, to Starfleet being out there.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I took it to mean that when Kirk took command of the Enterprise, they'd already been using the uniforms for quite awhile

The transition we missed, of course, was "Phase II". Have you seen Persis Khambatta's screen test pics? In a gold TOS uniform, in a slightly changed style?

And Chekov's shirt (sold in the "It's a Wrap!" eBay auctions) was red, showing his new career path: Head of Security. Other "Phase II" red tops were cannibalized in "Mork and Mindy".

Oh right, of course we missed Phase II, which likely would have accounted for the uniform transition. Got a link to the screen test pics? Can't remember ever seeing them.

Here is a link to the Phase II stuff courtesy of trekcore.com.

Ilia's Costume Test shots are at:
01. Row 5, Column 2
02. Row 5, Column 3
03. On the next webpage (page 7) Row 1, Column 1.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[bbailey861]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I actually like the explanation given in Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise that the ship's refit was atypical--it started off as an upgrade to merely the engines, but then that led to a number of compatibility problems that resulted in a total redesign of the vessel with other new technologies that were already on hand. The improvements first incorporated into the Enterprise were likely implemented throughout the rest of the Starfleet afterward, IMO.

As far as the change in uniforms, that's no real stretch. The TOS uniforms were only in service for 3 to 5 years (depending on what chronology you subscribe to), so changes in Starfleet uniforms after awhile aren't uncommon. This was definitely the case during the TNG/DS9/VOY era.

I like this, too. It is plausible - as anyone knows who has gone through a *!*##!*! house repair. One thing just leads to another......

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I think it was due to Rodenberry wanting to change the look. Trying to make up in universe explanations for things like this is pretty silly imo. I mean realistically a military organization simply wouldn't drastically change their uniforms 3 times within 20 years.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

The transition we missed, of course, was "Phase II". Have you seen Persis Khambatta's screen test pics? In a gold TOS uniform, in a slightly changed style?

And Chekov's shirt (sold in the "It's a Wrap!" eBay auctions) was red, showing his new career path: Head of Security. Other "Phase II" red tops were cannibalized in "Mork and Mindy".

Oh right, of course we missed Phase II, which likely would have accounted for the uniform transition. Got a link to the screen test pics? Can't remember ever seeing them.

Here is a link to the Phase II stuff courtesy of trekcore.com.

Ilia's Costume Test shots are at:
01. Row 5, Column 2
02. Row 5, Column 3
03. On the next webpage (page 7) Row 1, Column 1.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

Thanks. That was quite interesting. You can see that some of that, or at least some of the ideas, ended up in TNG.