How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in finale?

[DanTheGrey]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

It jarred me out of the story a bit the last time I saw it because I had seen a number of the other episodes where the footage was used within the previous month.

I think that they could have done some newer shots for the finale. In the end I just figure that I'll just be kind and assume that the reused footage is a "tribute" to all those who fell in the earlier battles rather than being cheap

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

Braxton said:
I'm amazed that there are people that couldn't tell the footage was reused material. I knew, not only from having taped SoA and watched it several times, but after seeing the first scene of the final battle and then eventually the reused footage. (emphasis mine)

And that is exactly what I'm talking about.

By your own admission, you a) taped the thing and b) watched it several times.

But when DS9 came out, probably most people did NOT tape it and watch it several times - I know I certainly didn't! And there WERE no DVDs or DVD recorders or TiVo or anything else.

Most of the original audience of the show watched it ONCE and then didn't see that footage again for almost TWO YEARS.

Why is it so shocking to you that people don't have a photographic memory of a 5 minute battle scene on a TV show for TWO YEARS???

 

[Kegek]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

^
Yeah, I didn't know it was stock footage until I was told. It's not like the big battles were the most compelling thing of the show, anyhow, so it doesn't bother me that much. Frankly, how the Breen were handled as the Next Big Pulp Bad bothered me more than any repeated effects.

Stock footage bothers me more in, say, Generations, or The Wrath of Khan than on TV.

 

[Braxton]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

PKTrekGirl said:

Braxton said:
I'm amazed that there are people that couldn't tell the footage was reused material. I knew, not only from having taped SoA and watched it several times, but after seeing the first scene of the final battle and then eventually the reused footage. (emphasis mine)

And that is exactly what I'm talking about.

By your own admission, you a) taped the thing and b) watched it several times.

But when DS9 came out, probably most people did NOT tape it and watch it several times - I know I certainly didn't! And there WERE no DVDs or DVD recorders or TiVo or anything else.

Most of the original audience of the show watched it ONCE and then didn't see that footage again for almost TWO YEARS.

Why is it so shocking to you that people don't have a photographic memory of a 5 minute battle scene on a TV show for TWO YEARS???

And yet people say "I've seen this show before, it was done 10 years ago". With an episode as important as SoA, I would think people would remember. But I digress.

 

[Magisterfrodo]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

They do and they did. I watched Sacrifice of Angels first run and immediately recognized the stock footage from it, "Tears of the Prophets", and "Strange Bedfellows" (which aired a mere 5 weeks before). I was extremely disappointing after the build-up to the huge final battle.

 

[Magisterfrodo]

AdmiralGarak said:
This again? It was a montage sequence that was about 5 seconds long. Everything else in the battle was brand new. Why does everyone here seem to think the battle was all stock footage?

Because almost all of it was. Seriously, aside from the shot of the Breen ships retreating and the wide pan show over Cardassia Prime, pretty much everything else was stock footage from previous episodes and even Star Trek VI.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

Braxton said:

PKTrekGirl said:

Braxton said:
I'm amazed that there are people that couldn't tell the footage was reused material. I knew, not only from having taped SoA and watched it several times, but after seeing the first scene of the final battle and then eventually the reused footage. (emphasis mine)

And that is exactly what I'm talking about.

By your own admission, you a) taped the thing and b) watched it several times.

But when DS9 came out, probably most people did NOT tape it and watch it several times - I know I certainly didn't! And there WERE no DVDs or DVD recorders or TiVo or anything else.

Most of the original audience of the show watched it ONCE and then didn't see that footage again for almost TWO YEARS.

Why is it so shocking to you that people don't have a photographic memory of a 5 minute battle scene on a TV show for TWO YEARS???

And yet people say "I've seen this show before, it was done 10 years ago". With an episode as important as SoA, I would think people would remember. But I digress.

Well, I think when people say that, they are thinking about the overall plot and theme of the episode - not the specifics of every ship that gets blown up in a 4 minute battle scene.

If you ask those people "What happened in Sacrifice of Angels?" They'd tell you something like "Well, there was a big space battle, Sisko and the Defiant were the only ship to break through the lines, and they headed for DS9. Alas, the Cardassians were successful at blowing up the mine field, however, and so Sisko headed into the wormhole to make a last-ditch effort to plead with the Prophets. He was successful and the Prophets took care of the Dominion reinforcements coming through the wormhole. And thanks to the Klingons arrival and some serious ass-kicking, the rest of the fleet was by that time headed to DS9, thus forcing the Dominion to leave. In the process of the Dominion evacuation, Damar shot Ziyal and Dukat was captured."

THAT is what they would tell you if they watched the episode once during it's initial airing - in fact, they might not even remember THAT much! They might just say something like "Yeah...that was the episode where they got DS9 back from the Dominion! Yeah! I remember that!".

They would not tell you, two years later "Well, in the battle, first ship ABC was blown up, but the fighter wing QRS came in and blew up the Cardassian ship. But then starship 123 and 456 got blown up right at the same time....etc, etc."

When people tell you they have 'seen an episode' ten years ago, it doesn't mean they remember every small detail. It means they remember the high points of what it was about.

 

[CDP]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

AdmiralGarak said:

CDP said:
In was disappointed, but it doesn't bother me too much, but the battle was mostly stock footage of SoA, ToTP, TCFoE, the only new shots were of the defiant doing a loop, and of a dominion ship chasing a miranda before breaking off, as i recall, but, then, I haven't watched the final chapter in a couple of years..

That's a ridiculous exageration. As I said, the new footage is easy to tell because of the presence of the Breen ships.

I don't think so - the breen ships are from changing face, pretty much, and as stated above 'the only new shots were of the defiant doing a loop, and of a dominion ship chasing a miranda before breaking off'

If you feel that you can point out more non stock footage, then pleaze do feel free.

Hardly groundbreaking battle new battle scenes..... This always dissapointed me about the finale.

KR,

CDP

 

[Kegek]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

To be honest, the main things I remember from "Sacrifice of Angels" are:

*Weyoun commenting on having weak eyes, but good ears
*Damar killing Ziyal, Dukat leaning over her in agony
*Garak commenting that she loved him yet he never really knew why
*A half-mad Dukat giving Sisko his baseball back, symbolically concluding the arc.

The Miranda escort the Defiant has that get blown aside, or the Hideki fighters swooping in on the Starfleet lines, rank somewhere lower down on the list.

 

[CDP]

On a slightly different note - has anyone noticed that the DS9 battle footage fighting the klingons in TWOTW is exactly the same as in call to arms. It looked to me like the edited out the kligon ships and edited in cardassion and dominion ships.

What do you think?

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

Kegek said:
To be honest, the main things I remember from "Sacrifice of Angels" are:

*Weyoun commenting on having weak eyes, but good ears
*Damar killing Ziyal, Dukat leaning over her in agony
*Garak commenting that she loved him yet he never really knew why
*A half-mad Dukat giving Sisko his baseball back, symbolically concluding the arc.

The Miranda escort the Defiant has that get blown aside, or the Hideki fighters swooping in on the Starfleet lines, rank somewhere lower down on the list.

*teehee*

See...here I am, major poster in this forum for 6+ years and mod-reading-every-thread for almost 5 years...and I don't even know from "Miranda escort" or "Hideki fighters".

In fact, the only reason I remember either of them specifically *now* (and not by name, mind you) is because of the numerous videos on YouTube of the battle in SoA which we have all watched over and over and over and over and over.

If I tried to remember the specifics of every single battle on every single scifi show I've ever watched, my head would explode in a fiery ball that would be visible from space.

 

[Kegek]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

^
Mirandas are the class of ship what the 'Reliant' is from TWOK. In 'Sacrifice of Angels', the Defiant's flanked by two of them, one of which - the Sitak, I believe - blows up quite spectacularly, as many youtube videos will attest.

The Hidekis are the smaller Cardassian ships that do attack runs, as opposed to their more standard cruiser, the Galor. I used to have the Encycolpedia way back when, you understand.... it's what we used before the whippersnappers got their Wikipedias and Memory Alphas.

 

[StarMan]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

I couldn't stand the reused footage - stuck out like a sore thumb. I suppose, having had an interest in CGI and visual FX at the time, it stuck out more for me than others.

Just a quick run down of the FX:

Fleet leaving DS9: reused from "Tears Of The Prophets".

Fleet on the move: reused from "Changing Face Of Evil".

Fed and Dominion fleets meeting: Fed fleet - altered from "Sacrifice Of Angels" to include Romulan and Klingon Ships. Dominion Fleet - reused from "Changing Face Of Evil".

Fleets engaging: New footage.

Defiant doing a big ol' 360: New footage.

30 second battle sequence: Reused footage from "Sacrifice Of Angels", "Tears Of The Prophets", "The Dogs Of War" and "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country".

General battle shot: New footage.

The Cardassians turn on the Dominion: New Footage.

The Dominion retreat: New footage.

The Feds on their way to Cardassia: Altered footage from "Tears Of The Prophets" to include a few background carddie ships.

The Dominion fleet in orbit of Card. Prime: New footage.

The feds standing by around Card. Prime: New footage.

 

[toughlittleship]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

There was some great new effects though, the Defiant doing the loop and the Cardassians saving the Defiant. Plus the shot of Dominion fleet in orbit of Cardassia has to be one of the best SFX ever.

Also, I don't think there was any footage from TUC. Generations did that.

 

[StarMan]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

^The footage was of the Klingons thrown about their ship.

 

[DS9forever]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

Was there any reason given for this? I've always figured it was because of the large guest cast.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

^ The bottom line is money. They only have so much of it, and those battle scenes were massively expensive. This was not CGI stuff - they used models for all of these scenes. And so the expense per minute of footage for battle scenes was HUGE.

If they had made every battle scene 100% 'new', then the bottom line is that other things would have had to have been cut to make budget. Since the largest expense is salaries...well, you do the math.

Chances are that if all the battle scenes in WYLB were 100% 'new' footage, then many of the recurring characters would not have been included in the final episode of the show.

In which case, we would be bitching about THAT.

 

[Vonstadt]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

I didnt notice it at the time, I was basically swept along by the plot when it aired.

As for now, I really don't care. I can understand budgets and airdates being moved up. I didnt see it as sloppy or anything and viewing it now, it really doesnt detract from the story for me. *shrugs*

It's still thrilling

 

[StarMan]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

PKTrekGirl said:
they used models for all of these scenes.

So far as I am aware, the new battle scenes were entirely CG and provided by Digital Muse.

re: The budget. Again, so far as I can recall, a large portion of the FX money went into the firecave sequence (which was produced by Foundation Imaging who - at the time - were primarily responsible for all of Voyager's FX).

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: How do U feel about Sac. of Angels stock footage in fina

^ Okay. Now I am confused. I have read about a million times that DS9 used models for the ships seen in battle scenes. IIRC, I thought I even read this in the companion.

As for the fire caves....well, I guess that little part were Sisko and Dukat finally had their showdown wasn't a necessary part of the episode. So maybe they should have cut that out to make way for 10 seconds more of kewl 'splosions in the battle scenes.


Much better use of the funds.