How do they repair ships in outerspace?

[Amaris]

It always seemed more plausible to me that a replicator doesn't create matter, just organizes it. There's tanks of raw material (not necessarily sewage, but that wouldn't hurt) that are fed through to the replicator and in a process of 3D deposition (similar to 3D printing or a nanolathe for the TA fans out there) builds the chicken finger by the molecule.

On a related note, beaming doesn't convert a human being into a couple of h-bombs worth of free energy, but uses some kind of as-yet unknown physically phenomenon (quantum entanglement, but easier) to literally teleport the exact atoms from A to B.

This is how it was always explained to me, also.

J.

 

[The Castellan]

In the Prime Universe, they'd have the latest, high tech equipment. In the Alternate Universe, they have stuff we'd see today, guys with welders, hell....they probably still use smeggin' oil in the ships in the alternate universe.

 

[Deks]

It always seemed more plausible to me that a replicator doesn't create matter, just organizes it. There's tanks of raw material (not necessarily sewage, but that wouldn't hurt) that are fed through to the replicator and in a process of 3D deposition (similar to 3D printing or a nanolathe for the TA fans out there) builds the chicken finger by the molecule.

On a related note, beaming doesn't convert a human being into a couple of h-bombs worth of free energy, but uses some kind of as-yet unknown physically phenomenon (quantum entanglement, but easier) to literally teleport the exact atoms from A to B.

This is how it was always explained to me, also.

J.

And yet it doesn't correlate with on-screen evidence, plus it would be a more power intensive version of Kirk's TOS food dispensers with an added transport FX for aesthetics

Replicators convert energy from the plasma conduits (which are the EPS grid that runs through the ship and powers everything ... with the main power source being the warp core) into matter.

They don't have storages of raw matter ... in fact, what they do is just convert everything into energy, and then convert that energy into desired matter as far as replicators go

Every time in the shows, replicators are mentioned to require energy ... never raw matter.
Voyager even went searching for omicron particles which were a compatible energy source for the replicators.

That's what sets them apart from mere food/tools synthesizers on Kirk's ship which essentially break down waste for example to it's base components and re-arrange it into something else.
We do the same thing today actually in industrialized zones through recycling ... Kirk's ship did it better though of course.
TNG went beyond that by focusing on the actual matter conversion process.
Energy into matter ... matter into energy.

Remember that energy cannot be created or destroyed (as far as our understanding goes).
It's only changed from one form into the other.
They merely change energy that comes from the warp core and the EPS grid into another form ... tangible matter such as food and other kinds of materials.

 

[T'Girl]

Originally Posted by STR
It always seemed more plausible to me that a replicator doesn't create matter, just organizes it. There's tanks of raw material (not necessarily sewage, but that wouldn't hurt) that are fed through to the replicator ...

IMO Yes.

Originally Posted by Deks
They don't have storages of raw matter ... in fact, what they do is just convert everything into energy, and then convert that energy into desired matter as far as replicators go.

IMO No.

Would anyone care to take a stab at why after the second season the Voyager was still rationing replicator use? The power system seemed to to be back up to specs by that time. And they could of picked up raw materials (if they needed any at all) from just about anywhere.


T'Girl

 

[Deks]

On-screen evidence clearly suggests energy to matter conversion process as far as replicators go, and there is 0 evidence they need raw matter for them to begin with.

Furthermore ... Torres explained their conversion technologies to the Malon and went down to the point that theta radiation is absorbed by a series of radiometric converters for example, going on how the energy in question is recycled, which is then used to power all ship systems (replicators included).

I have heard 0 reference on-screen that replicators need raw matter in order to create something.

Transporters operate on the following basic principle: changing matter into energy, then back again.

Holodecks: converting (pre-existing) energy into matter, and back again (clearly said on-screen by Janeway).

Replicators: Convert ship's pre-existing energy into matter ('raw matter' was never mentioned as being part of the process) and they can also recycle matter into energy.

Why do you think they were rationing replicators beyond season 1?
They constantly said that replicators are energy intensive.

Data also mentioned in one of TNG episodes when they experienced a severe power drain that they no longer have the necessary energy to create complex elements.
If raw matter was part of the process, it would have been mentioned somewhere down the line as being in shortage along with the energy.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

The way replicators, transporters and holodecks are portrayed is wildly inconsistent. However, if you'd like to see absence of evidence as evidence of absence, feel free to.

 

[Deks]

Transporters: matter into energy, moving that energy to a different location, and energy into matter.
Replicators: energy into matter (for creation of desired objects) and matter into energy (recycling purposes).

Replicators were said to have been 'based off' transporters (which doesn't mean their operations will be exactly in the same order like that of the transporters).
Transporters need matter to work with because they were intended to move objects and people (matter) across distances in a few seconds.

Since the energy conversion process requires ability to manipulate said energy and change it from one form into the other (which SF has the ability to do in great detail), I repeat, why would replicators need raw matter to create objects?

 

[Vanyel]

Transporters: matter into energy, moving that energy to a different location, and energy into matter.
Replicators: energy into matter (for creation of desired objects) and matter into energy (recycling purposes).

Replicators were said to have been 'based off' transporters (which doesn't mean their operations will be exactly in the same order like that of the transporters).
Transporters need matter to work with because they were intended to move objects and people (matter) across distances in a few seconds.

Since the energy conversion process requires ability to manipulate said energy and change it from one form into the other (which SF has the ability to do in great detail), I repeat, why would replicators need raw matter to create objects?

I got these from Ex Astris Scientia:
1.

According to the TNGTM the replicators perform "molecular synthesis", meaning that they rearrange substances on the molecular level. Replicators are a form of nanochemistry. In order to replicate anything, they require the same amount of the same type of matter as raw material. They are not capable of creating matter from pure energy, although this may have been stated once or twice on screen -- but even the transporter which almost definitely doesn't work like that was occasionally said to perform an energy-to-matter transformation.

2.

Device capable of creating matter from suited raw matter. Its working principle is related to that of the transporter. The replicator disassembles and assembles matter in a similar way, the main difference is that its resolution is limited to the molecular level (TNG, DS9, VOY).
Compared to the transporter, the requirements for a replicator are rather limited, and it is not plausible why it has been invented about a century after the transporter. The replicator works on a molecular base, which is sufficient to create food or articles for daily use. It is necessary to store suited raw matter, i.e. matter with the molecular composition required. Usually waste is employed for this purpose. According to the STTNG Technical Manual, up to 82% of waste on a starship can be recycled to food. Bon appetit!

So, the ship would have a store of matter for the replicators to use, to replicate into food.

As for Voyager: The replicator, like the transporters are energy hogs (In Yesterday's Enterprise, Tasha tells Castillo, that the replicators are on minimal power so more power can be used for defense). Voyager also has a limited amount of stored matter for the replicators to use. Therefore, to allow the ship to conserve energy and the matter the replicators use, rationing was ordered.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Transporters: matter into energy, moving that energy to a different location, and energy into matter.
Replicators: energy into matter (for creation of desired objects) and matter into energy (recycling purposes).

Deks, energy isn't "material" as such. If you don't store it properly, it just floats around in your ship as heat. You convert energy into matter every time you trigger an endothermic chemical reaction; you convert matter into energy every time you do the opposite.

But energy itself isn't some quintessential material that can be pumped from one little jar to the other until you want to turn it into matter. That it is EQUIVALENT to matter does not mean it is INTERCHANGEABLE with matter. And as it stands, there is literally one and ONLY one way to convert a solid object into energy in the way you described: bombard that object with antiparticles so that it is annihilated into gamma rays and neutrinos. Conversely, the only way to convert energy back into matter is to collide high energy photons and trigger particle/antiparticle pair production. It would be an extremely painful way to kill someone, and it would be a very efficient way of producing antimatter, but it wouldn't be very useful for transporting things and people from one place to another.

The more likely scenario is that quanta of energy--photons, in other words--are being somehow manipulated to perform very specific operations on physical particles. We hear alot about "phased matter" in relation to both transporters and holograms, enough to know that both involve forcefields and the kind of "matter conversion" process. So-called "phased matter" is a type of substance composed of manipulated energy quanta such as virtual photons and electrons that can be programmed to perform a specific task under very specific conditions. The simplest task, obviously, is dismantlement and reassembly: you can break an object apart and encapsulate its constituent molecules in hundreds of trillions of these little photonic capsules, then shoot those capsules in an arbitrary direction with instructions to reassemble their payloads at a specific distance along the confinement beam. Holograms must work on a similar principle, but without the matter payload; the phased-matter particles are programmed to absorb and re-emit photons exactly the way normal molecules would, giving the illusion of substance where there isn't any. A more powerful forcefield composed of such particles could be programmed to impart electromagnetic forces on other objects, again behaving like a solid without having any REAL substance. Starship defensive forcefields and even weapons might operate using similar technology; after all, "phaser" might just be shorthand for "phased matter particle projector."

Since the energy conversion process requires ability to manipulate said energy and change it from one form into the other (which SF has the ability to do in great detail), I repeat, why would replicators need raw matter to create objects?

Because it would take a FANTASTIC amount of energy to be converted into even a small amount of matter, and half of that matter would end up being antimatter, which is the last thing you'd want to have pouring out of a malfunctioning replicator.

The other problem is where that energy comes from. If Commander Riker orders a porterhouse steak and a glass of water, then that meal is--energetically--equivalent to 16 ounces of matter and 16 ounces of antimatter, since Commander Riker can't eat a steak that is composed of 50% antimatter. If fifteen other crewmen order the same meal at the exact same time, then that's fifteen pounds of matter and fifteen pounds of antimatter being reacted in the warp core JUST TO POWER THE REPLICATORS. This then leads to the problem of how to recover that energy after Commander Riker waddles off to the space toilet; the only way to turn that material back into energy is to bombard it with antimatter, which would have the immediate effect of detonating a 50 megaton thermonuclear device directly under Riker's ass.

Perhaps you're starting to get the idea: even a small amount of matter is equivalent to a HUGE amount of energy. So huge, in fact, that the only place on the ship where matter can be safely converted into energy--even in small amounts--is the WARP CORE, a malfunction of which can destroy the entire ship. If matter/energy conversion were such a simple affair, the Enterprise wouldn't have or need a warp core at all, they could simply shovel random debris into a wall slot like an old steam engine and let the machine break it down into pure energy; Number One's Number Two could be piped directly to engineering to give the ship a little boost at warp speed. But the fact that pure energy conversion is still blindingly dangerous implies that neither transporters nor replicators operate on this principle; they are, instead, matter MANIPULATORS, like smaller-scale and infinitely safer versions of Carol Marcus' Genesis device. You can't simply plug a replicator into a power socket and have it produce a three course meal, you only need a (relatively small) power source and a supply of raw material to transform into anything you want.

 

[Myasishchev]

Newtype basically captured it, but to recapitulate:

Energy cannot be converted into matter on a 100% basis.
Energy when turned into matter creates particle-antiparticle pairs.
...Is still not in nucleon form initially.
...Is still not in the form of usable (astronomical definition) metal atoms.
...Is still not bound by electrons.
Is still extremely hot.

I mean, it's problematic enough to deal with the heat from just moving a full-on sandwich, let alone the assembly thereof.

 

[Unicron]

Isn't Applied Phlebotinum a wonderful thing?

 

[Santaman]

Newtype basically captured it, but to recapitulate:

Energy cannot be converted into matter on a 100% basis.
Energy when turned into matter creates particle-antiparticle pairs.
...Is still not in nucleon form initially.
...Is still not in the form of usable (astronomical definition) metal atoms.
...Is still not bound by electrons.
Is still extremely hot.

Unless you have some subspace thingymayingy which negates about every problem, if you can shove a 5 million ton Starship into subspace and make it move at Warp 9.95 then making a sandwich with another subspace driven device is a piece of cake.

 

[Deks]

Ex Atris Scientia and the Technical Manual are not canon.
On-screen evidence on the other hand is.

It was mentioned on-screen on several occasions that replicators convert energy to matter.
The fact that someone else decided that this explanation was not viable ... well, it's not really my problem since I go along with on-screen evidence for the most part (which is really not that problematic to reconcile with other pre-established aspects if something new gets done ... the only problem is the lack of repeating this procedure in the future because it would be a solution to a lot of issues that the writers came up with in the time alloted).

Newtype_Alpha

I get what you are saying ... still, as you yourself mentioned, it would require a 'fantastic' amount of energy to create something (which is not so difficult because SF is already producing 'astronomical' amounts of power).
And on-screen evidence in Voyager repeatedly states that replicators are highly energy intensive to begin with, so the fact that large amounts of energy are needed to convert it to matter makes sense (that is, at least it was until late Season 7 when they acquired technology to triple replicator efficiency so they can feed 500 people per day using half the power it took them before, which likely solved a lot of issues).

SF uses Warp cores (matter/anti-matter reactions for power generation) to power their ships and systems, not to mention the fact they are capable of manipulating theta radiation as well and recycle it into usable energy for ship systems.

They used M/AM reactions the early days of Federation as a matter of fact ... and they would continue to likely improve on the process so they can generate even higher amounts of power with newer generation of Warp cores and processes, until they find another way to produce even higher amounts of power, such as perhaps using an artificial quantum singularities, or perhaps omega molecules themselves.

Also, just because the procedure involved is mind-boggling in our opinion, and can easily kill someone as you so lightly put it, why wouldn't SF use it if they found a way to do so safely and in a far more refined way?
It's the future ... not the present.

Transporters were displayed to perform a variety of capabilities in addition to moving people and objects from one location to the other.

To say that they wouldn't be able to convert energy (say warp plasma) into solid matter is not exactly viable, since we saw them doing exactly that.

I will concede the fact that they utilize waste extraction technologies to recycle waste ... but with transporter type technology, it's simple to convert that matter into usable energy which is distributed throughout the ship or kept in specialized batteries or in suspended state for future use (wchich is again something they can do).

Late 24th century SF displayed a high degree of technological development and conversion technologies ... so energy to matter conversion is not that problematic for them ... although likely power intensive for replicators because they were a relatively new technology (some 30 odd years before the Enterprise-D) in comparison to the transporters that have been around for 200 years.

For ships near Federation space, starbases/outposts or well known replenish-able sources of power, they don't have to worry about replicator use.
Voyager was in an unfamiliar territory though and was experiencing power problems in the first 2 seasons (and likely would not fare too well for their power reserves to use replicators like they usually do even pass that time frame given their long journey ahead).

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, no sense in arguing it then, since we have two different philosophies for dealing with dialogue evidence. If it is clearly preposterous, I tend to assume the characters were either simply wrong or oversimplifying. It doesn't make sense to me to use a fission bomb to fry an egg, but if that's what you prefer, I can't talk you out of it.

 

[Deks]

Numerous things in Trek that SF does probably don't make much sense from contemporary people's points of view.
To assume the characters were wrong, is essentially assuming a lot, and ultimately comes down to the point because you want to justify your opinion on how the technology works because their explanation doesn't seem likely/possible/whatnot to you.

But if you want a real life example:
It doesn't make sense to me that the US power grid is century out of date ... yet it is.

It also probably doesn't make sense that we consume far more power and resources than we did just 20 years ago, but we still do.
It doesn't make sense that we have tons of trash on this planet that can be recycled with today's technology into usable fuel for example, and yet, for the most part it just sits there.

It doesn't make sense our society is continuously using the excuse 'we have no money' when progress is supposed to happen, or we have an option to switch to other technologies that would benefit us in the long run ... yet, it's how it is.

If this resource/power expenditure continued to increase in Trek over time as well, it only stands to reason they had to create power sources which are multiple orders of magnitude of what we could hope to achieve any time soon.

Bearing that in mind, the warp core has to supply more than enough energy to ALL ship systems ... not just the replicators.

But to also expand on what you said ... why would you need a hand phaser to be powerful enough to vaporize people, mountainsides or entire buildings in a blink of an eye (which they can) ?
It doesn't make sense, I'm sure ... yet it's still there.

There are a number of similar things in real life that don't make sense to some people, especially when you try to reconcile logic and reason with it ... yet they exist.

At least in Trek it's fairly consistent that they were using something capable of destroying half the planet as a power source in order to get all this highly advanced technology (at least from our perspective) to work.
Go figure ... energy use in the future will be higher because the technology in question requires it.

Just how much power was needed again to transport a single electron (was it?) from one location to the other in that real life experiment again?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I get what you are saying ... still, as you yourself mentioned, it would require a 'fantastic' amount of energy to create something (which is not so difficult because SF is already producing 'astronomical' amounts of power).

But Starfleet ships are not producing the amount of power that would be needed to make that system workable. That would literally require a starship to convert at least as much matter as is used by the crew, which means you now have to dump dozens of kilograms of fuel into the reactor every second JUST TO RUN THE REPLICATORS.

Even if it were possible to do so, it would still be far more efficient to use a smaller amount of energy to reorganize a pre-existing quantity of matter than to try and create some ex nihilo.

And on-screen evidence in Voyager repeatedly states that replicators are highly energy intensive to begin with

Not nearly as intensive as they would be if they were total-conversion devices. It's essentially the difference between a few megawatts (for reorganizers) and thousands of gigawatts (for a conversion device). The ship would literally have to drop out of warp every time somebody orders dinner, and a single replicator would draw more power than the entire ship's weapons, shields, engines and sensors COMBINED.

Also, just because the procedure involved is mind-boggling in our opinion, and can easily kill someone...

Matter antimatter reactions don't kill "someone." Matter antimatter reactions--especially the ones that get out of control--kill EVERYONE. A warp core breach will destroy the entire ship and anything unshielded within a hundred kilometers of it; it is inconcievable that a starship actually has hundreds of small matter-antimatter reactors in every room of the ship, a malfunction in any ONE of which can destroy it completely.

I will concede the fact that they utilize waste extraction technologies to recycle waste ... but with transporter type technology, it's simple to convert that matter into usable energy

I've already explained that transporters do not convert matter into energy. They break matter apart and send it somewhere else using energy as a carrie wave.

 

[STR]

Number One's Number Two could be piped directly to engineering to give the ship a little boost at warp speed.

While obviously not your point, I'd pay money to see/hear Picard say "This is the captain. We need more speed to catch the Borg. All hands report immediately to the head. Mr. Data, all laxatives to standby."

 

[Deks]

But Starfleet ships are not producing the amount of power that would be needed to make that system workable. That would literally require a starship to convert at least as much matter as is used by the crew, which means you now have to dump dozens of kilograms of fuel into the reactor every second JUST TO RUN THE REPLICATORS.

Lol.
Voyager's warp core produces 4000 teradynes per second for example which allows faster than light propulsion (and of course powers every other system on the ship), but power requirements of replicators were not stated on-screen to my recollection.
Why would they 'dump dozens of kilograms of fuel into the reactor every second just to run the replicators' as you say, when the warp core already produces the energy needed for them?

Even if it were possible to do so, it would still be far more efficient to use a smaller amount of energy to reorganize a pre-existing quantity of matter than to try and create some ex nihilo.

They were using reorganization of pre-existing quantity of matter on the NX-01 via the protein re sequencer and recycling of waste into various other things.
Kirk's Enterprise did the same thing on a more refined level.

The late 24th century technology as I saw it and as it was explained did virtually everything through conversion of matter and energy, or energy and matter on a subatomic level.

Not nearly as intensive as they would be if they were total-conversion devices. It's essentially the difference between a few megawatts (for reorganizers) and thousands of gigawatts (for a conversion device). The ship would literally have to drop out of warp every time somebody orders dinner, and a single replicator would draw more power than the entire ship's weapons, shields, engines and sensors COMBINED.

Your interpretation of course, as ships never dropped out of warp when replicators were in use, and it was already stated on-screen that replicators convert energy into matter.

Matter antimatter reactions don't kill "someone." Matter antimatter reactions--especially the ones that get out of control--kill EVERYONE. A warp core breach will destroy the entire ship and anything unshielded within a hundred kilometers of it; it is inconcievable that a starship actually has hundreds of small matter-antimatter reactors in every room of the ship, a malfunction in any ONE of which can destroy it completely.

Sigh ... they have a gigantic warp core spanning multiple decks that operates on matter/antimatter reactions to produce enormous quantities of energy which is distributed throughout the ship via the EPS grid in a form of a volatile, yet controllable plasma.

Or I guess you haven't noticed that consoles exploding in people's faces had a tendency of killing them on a regular basis?

I've already explained that transporters do not convert matter into energy. They break matter apart and send it somewhere else using energy as a carrier wave.

And I suppose 15 years of on-screen evidence is to be thrown out the window?
Not to mention the episode in which Picard was converted into a state of energy via the transporters when he merged with the alien entity that infiltrated the ship's systems.

I agree that transporters break matter apart, though they apparently have to turn it into phased particles of energy which are sent via the carrier wave to another location and rematerialized into original form.

Energy that SF ships use is made of particles, is it not?

Voyager mentioned Omicron particles (Omicron radiation) as a compatible energy source for the replicators.

If you recall what Torres mentioned about Theta radiation ...
'It's absorbed by a series of radiometric converters. We, recycle the energy, and use it to power all our systems, everything from weapons to replicators.'

It's the particle conversion of the warp plasma (which is used as energy) on a subatomic level that's taking place inside the replicators and not from raw matter.
Those energy particles are rearranged to form molecules, and finally into a piece of solid matter.

Raw matter would be easily and directly recycled into the ship's systems through conversion into energy for storage and later use.
Given how SF was displayed with an ability to actually store energy in suspended states for example, I hardly see the problem here.

 

[Myasishchev]

I agree that transporters break matter apart, though they apparently have to turn it into phased particles of energy which are sent via the carrier wave to another location and rematerialized into original form.

Energy that SF ships use is made of particles, is it not?

Voyager mentioned Omicron particles (Omicron radiation) as a compatible energy source for the replicators.

If you recall what Torres mentioned about Theta radiation ...
'It's absorbed by a series of radiometric converters. We, recycle the energy, and use it to power all our systems, everything from weapons to replicators.'

It's the particle conversion of the warp plasma (which is used as energy) on a subatomic level that's taking place inside the replicators and not from raw matter.
Those energy particles are rearranged to form molecules, and finally into a piece of solid matter.

Voyager's warp core produces 4000 teradynes per second for example which allows faster than light propulsion (and of course powers every other system on the ship), but power requirements of replicators were not stated on-screen to my recollection.

A dyne is 1g X cm/s^2, or a whopping /10^-8 newtons. A teradyne, hence, is 10^4 Newtons. 4000 teradynes is 4 X 10^7 newtons. Leaving aside the curious notion of calculating the output of a reactor in force instead of watts or at least joules*), I'd like to point out that 40,000 newtons is not particularly much. Apparently the warp reactor generates roughly as much force as a large automobile... exerts against the pavement when it's sitting in a driveway. That's pretty lame. It's like Tom Paris saying his weiner was 2000 giga-angstroms long.

*Seriously, though, and I'll be charitable--is it referring to the pressure of the warp plasma? What's the per second for? There is already a change-over-time dimension to a dyne. Is the pressure increasing? After ten seconds, is the core generating 40,000 teradynes?

And another thing! 4000 teradynes is 4 exadynes!

 

[Timo]

...In defense of some of that nonsense (the onscreen stuff, not the interpretations), there are circumstances where it makes sense to use thousands of teras instead of exas. For example, if the output of competing products is in the tera range, it really pays to describe your own product in the same range and show that it goes to the four digits against the opposition's puny one, two or three.

For practical reasons, any output range straddling a prefix is best expressed by systematically using that prefix: internal combustion engines are best described as putting out dozens or perhaps hundreds of kilowatts at the upper end, but tenths of a kilowatt at the lower, rather than divided into those measured in kilowatts and those measured in watts (or hectowatts). But perhaps exadyne outputs are so rare in the 24th century that the established practice is not of using exadynes and then tenths or hundredths of an exadyne, but of multiples of teradynes?

Also, "dyne" might in theory be a unit of warp field stress, if "cochrane" measures warp field strength or density or whatnot. After all, since everybody has adopted the SI system, the word "dyne" is free for other uses.

Or then it's an all-new unit spelled "dyme". As in "The dyme barrier has been broken; our new ships can... Oh, wow, lookit the size of those!"

Timo Saloniemi