How difficult SHOULD it be to steal a starship?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Angry Fanboy, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I would not recommend watching it then. I love JAG.
     
  2. Go-Captain

    Go-Captain Captain Captain

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    You might like JAG in Space by Jack Campbell. It has space lawyering without subversion of protocol.
     
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'll have to check it out.
     
  4. Go-Captain

    Go-Captain Captain Captain

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    If you end up liking it I also recommend the Stark's War series, which is quite short and complete, and The Lost Fleet, which can be a bit repetitive but really interesting. It's all the same author using nom do plume.
     
  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't really like Stark's War but it might be worth a revisit after finishing the other series.
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think this point needs to be understood well. 24th century tech is not infailable, and would make for the most boring :censored: stories this side reading of IRS tax code in the original Klingon.

    The reason why the security problems in Trek don't bother me is because Starfleet has enemies who are trying to find weaknesses and exploit holes. Even O'Brien, in Trials and Tribble-ations, utilized a 3 second variance in the Enterprise's scans to board undetected. Small exploits become big ones, and that's what Starfleet's enemies would be hunting for, and Starfleet would be also. Otherwise we wouldn't have spies all over the place.

    I'm not an IT or computer science graduate but I work with Protected Health Information and get stories from IT about how many attacks our small, single city, agency endure. Why would Starfleet be any different?
     
  7. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Impossible for the Impossible Missions Force.
     
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  8. tesral

    tesral Commander Red Shirt

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    Go steal an aircraft carrier difficult.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...One of those models that takes three people to get moving, that is. And usually you're a legitimate Captain yourself anyway. "Stealing" is just a normal working day with a few bureaucratic ambiguities.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. tesral

    tesral Commander Red Shirt

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    That might not be as dull as you think.

    Yes security is a constantly evolving game. Which is why it is will still be in force no matter the future.

    I will concede that stealing the Enterprise in STIII was barely possible because it was the people with the security codes. And they the got noticed fast. The TNG ep 11001001, had me going "Oh come on" as I was watching it. Appropriate Stupidly all over the thing. Why are the Binars, not even Federation members with the right security clearances even allowed to touch the workings of the Enterprise?
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because those workings are adequately protected?

    Believing so would appear natural enough. We don't have food tasters today, even though poisoning us through food should be simpler than ever. There's simply a general level of overall security that makes it foolish to undertake special security measures that would make life hell, on the off chance that they might help prolong it. And even if we do fear assassins in specific, we don't hire tasters or sniffers: we hire trusted food producers. Which in practice only ever means hiring producers who aren't known for their untrustworthiness. (This going for the military, too.)

    Really, if Hollywood gets something (deliberately) wrong, it's the absurdly complicated security measures the villains or the marks have in place...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. tesral

    tesral Commander Red Shirt

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    And we don't live in Game of Thrones. I think if you look in the world of paranoid world leaders the profession is not as rare as you think. A certain King of the Russ is rather well known for poisoning people. We also see regular failures of the food protection system. Bad Example.

    My point being is why were they even employing the Binars? Two, to the Binars themselves, did you bother ASKING? If they did enough study to know the ship well enough to steal it they would also know the Federation LOVES to help people. Bad episode Too many open ended questions that if even asked derail the whole thing. Classic 5 second plot. Rationalizing does not fix it. Weight of verbiage does not fix it. That one goes to the "other place" of Trek episode quality.

    Good security has the dual quality of being sufficient to the task and not onerous for the user. Windows (kinda) vs Linux (as good as you let it). Some things need security that is more onerous to the end user, like the keys to nuclear power plants or say, starships. Some things need very little, the lock on your front door. Beater cars with "steal this" in the window.

    Anything with the fire power to level a planet, needs to be very hard to steal even if that means the rightful crew really has to work at it.
     
  13. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    The Binars have binary decision thinking (yes or no), so, even if they calculated that the Federation had a 1% chance to say no, then to them, it was no. They needed to pursue a course of action were the outcome is 100% yes.
     
  14. tesral

    tesral Commander Red Shirt

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    A race that took 1% uncertainty as no would not advance any technology. You made the ep worse.
     
  15. Henoch

    Henoch Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Binary thinking is a cool concept and fits their name. :cool: Another option is they made a Cost-Risk analysis where the cost was so great (loss of their civilization) that even a small risk of no was unacceptable.
     
  16. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The episode makes it clear that the Binars' drastic action was limited to just this one unique scenario:

    PICARD: Why didn't you just ask for our help?
    ZERO ONE: You might have
    ONE ZERO: said no.
    RIKER: But there was a very good chance we would have said yes.
    ZERO ZERO: Our need was too great
    ONE ONE: to risk rejection.
    PICARD: So you stole it.
    RIKER: Their reason is part of their binary thinking. For them there are only two choices. One or zero. Yes or no. Why did you lure me to the holodeck and hold me there.
    ONE ZERO: Because we knew we might die.​

    Their use of variables in language like "might" indicates that the Binars are quite accustomed to the concept - the death of their entire civilisation was just too important to settle for anything other than YES/NO.
     
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  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which I guess is the point: cyberattacks in the 24th century might be as outdated as a concept as poisoning of food is today. Not because the underlying technologies would have been forgotten or specific safeguards improved, but because such an attack no longer is an efficient and terrifying, cutting-edge threat the enemy is disproportionately afraid of because of a general lack of defenses.

    We're talking about the military environment, though: the USN might be paranoid about cyberattacks today, but isn't about food poison attacks, and both might be dinosaurs in the 24th century.

    Why not? Hiring locals is good for the image, I'd guess.

    For the same reason people with money and valid prescriptions steal Viagra from the chemist's or order from shady net sources? You don't tell anybody that your life hangs on a thread, not even your doctor, and least of all the little lady selling the thread.

    Which, again, is why we don't have food tasters today. And why Starfleet might see no point in physically stopping enemy agents from sticking their USB chips into starship mainframes. The true, non-onerous safeguards are elsewhere, deeper in the system, and the enemy just wastes his resources if going for the conventional-antiquated direct attack.

    Yet today it's fairly simple to steal a WMD - say, a delivery truck.

    Things with the firepower to level planets simply aren't particularly rare or exotic in the 24th century. So your safeguards need to be elsewhere: perhaps you use surgery to make non-terrorists out of all of your citizens at an early age?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Just remember to make sure you lock up all the crew including the cook.
     
  19. Richard Baker

    Richard Baker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    One of my favorites that he has done!
     
  20. Garblovian Greg

    Garblovian Greg Ensign Newbie

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    It shouldn't even be possible to enter a starship without biometric scans and authorization codes, to include biometric data gathered during transport. Every workstation, terminal, console, and important piece of equipment would not function if the operator of it wasn't authorized via biometric scans at the very minimum. Basically the toilets and faucets should work with no authorization required, but everything else would be locked down.

    However, for those with authorization, the scanning and authorization process would be so unobtrusive, automatic, and seemless, that these security precautions would be invisible to the authorized user. He would simply be able to access and use the equipment and data he is authorized for, without having to log in or submit to scans that take time and effort to complete.

    I'd also suspect that by the time we can build warp capable starships with navigational and defensive deflector systems, it wouldn't take long to figure out how to use them and keep them up at all times, during warp, while transporting, and while using weapons, so that all these systems can be used concurrently WITHOUT having enemies exploit any period of time in which shields are down to transport over a boarding party!

    That, Ensign, is what we call a "Plot Device". To be activated on Captain's orders only.
     
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