Spoilers How different are Seven and Picard compared to people who were never assimilated?

[Unimatrix Q]

"After they brought you back from your time in the collective... do you honestly feel that you regained your humanity?"
"Yes."
"All of it?"
"No. But we're both working on it... aren't we?"
"Every damn day of my life."

Were Seven and Picard just talking about still suffering a kind of ptsd because of their experiences with the collective or is it something else?

I always thought Picard just got a form of ptsd from his traumatic experiences as Locutus, but this dialogue made it seem like it could be something more.

Do xBs experience the world differently than people who were never assimilated? In this case, how different are they compared to people who were never assimilated?

 

[Lord Garth]

I think the most direct comparison would be to look at Picard from the first three seasons of TNG versus afterwards. The only difference I see is an unspoken one. He seems more acutely aware of his Humanity. Possibly because he appreciates it more and doesn't take for granted something he wouldn't have given a second thought to previously.

I think Picard's PTSD is more like the nerves under your feet or on your toes. You never realize how much they're actually there until you stub your toe or step on something by accident. You don't even think about it otherwise.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I'm wondering if Picard and Seven are experiencing something else unique to Exborg too, beside this. Maybe a different body feel, a changed relationship to it or a different way of thinking and experiencing sensory information?

 

[Racefuel]

"After they brought you back from your time in the collective... do you honestly feel that you regained your humanity?"
"Yes."
"All of it?"
"No. But we're both working on it... aren't we?"
"Every damn day of my life."

Were Seven and Picard just talking about still suffering a kind of ptsd because of their experiences with the collective or is it something else?

I always thought Picard just got a form of ptsd from his traumatic experiences as Locutus, but this dialogue made it seem like it could be something more.

Do xBs experience the world differently than people who were never assimilated? In this case, how different are they compared to people who were never assimilated?

Well consider this..part of what being human is defined as is being utterly unique, a separate, utterly unique being that has never been seen before (you, being exactly you) and once you're gone..will never ever be seen again.

Being a Borg has that individuality, that uniqueness, completely erased. So while you may break a bone, it can heal, but it's not the same bone it was before, it's changed. Being a Borg means you have had a fundamental part of humanity ripped away and then even if it is allowed to come back..it's not the same, it "feels" different.

That's kind of how I viewed it...a perpetual feeling of being "dirty" for lack of a better term, a fake.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

I think for Jean-Luc there's an added sense of dread - the Borg essentially used him and his knowledge to kill over 11,000 people. The Borg Queen did God-Knows-What with him without his consent. (I don't even want to think about it.) He was supposed to be "more than just another Borg drone", the Borg Queen's "equal", as stated in "First Contact". Assimilation alone is horrible and terrifying enough, but to be used in the "you're gonna be our special toy" way the Borg used Jean-Luc... it adds yet another layer of horror. No wonder the poor man suffers from severe PTSD.

I'm very much willing to bet that an echo of Locutus still remains within his mind, and the same goes for Seven. You can't leave something like this behind, the violation and the mind invasion... it's too severe. It stays with you. And, with Jean-Luc, you also have his overwhelming guilt, irrational as it is, guilt that he couldn't stop the Borg, that he "didn't fight enough", etc etc.

I have always wondered what Jean-Luc would say or do if someone offered him to remove that echo of Locutus in his mind - there's a comic in which Q offers him to do something this, but Jean-Luc ultimately declines, stating that it's "part of me" or something. I found that answer very interesting.

 

[Dahie]

I believe saying they "just had PTSD" is too short. PTSD can stay for a long time, even when the biggest part was processed, it's a trauma that you keep for life. This is how I understood when Picard said he hadn't fully regained his humanity.

On another thought, one difference that Picard and Seven had compared to other XBs is that they were freed from the collective and immediately brought bake into a safe and different environment. They could distance themselves from the Borg and were surrounded by caring people. The XB community we see in PIC is caring and dear, but they are still living in their captor's "house" under foreign influence (Romulans). This surely is not helping the healing process. However as Picard said, it may not be perfect, but it's a good effort.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Seeing how deeply Hugh cared and grieved for the other xBs, I imagine that the xBs do indeed have a lot of support from each other and have formed deep friendships over the years and that might stopped them from feeling the same sense of isolation as Picard and Seven have felt at times. As bad as life has been under the Romulans the xBs might be a true Brotherhood/Cooperative. I hope that they obtain the freedom they deserve.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I think for Jean-Luc there's an added sense of dread - the Borg essentially used him and his knowledge to kill over 11,000 people. The Borg Queen did God-Knows-What with him without his consent. (I don't even want to think about it.) He was supposed to be "more than just another Borg drone", the Borg Queen's "equal", as stated in "First Contact". Assimilation alone is horrible and terrifying enough, but to be used in the "you're gonna be our special toy" way the Borg used Jean-Luc... it adds yet another layer of horror. No wonder the poor man suffers from severe PTSD.

I'm very much willing to bet that an echo of Locutus still remains within his mind, and the same goes for Seven. You can't leave something like this behind, the violation and the mind invasion... it's too severe. It stays with you. And, with Jean-Luc, you also have his overwhelming guilt, irrational as it is, guilt that he couldn't stop the Borg, that he "didn't fight enough", etc etc.

I have always wondered what Jean-Luc would say or do if someone offered him to remove that echo of Locutus in his mind - there's a comic in which Q offers him to do something this, but Jean-Luc ultimately declines, stating that it's "part of me" or something. I found that answer very interesting.

Yeah, FC actually hints at that with Jean Luc exploiting his still existing connection to the collective to destroy the cube.

What i wonder about, with his connection and a possible remnant of Locutus existing in his mind, are there additional changes in the way he experiences the world, beside the PTSD?

Is the way his brain creates his identity and his perception of the world different to what it was like before he was assimilated?

With Seven i'm almost sure, that it was or still is, considering the long time she spent as a Borg drone.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Trauma changes a person, you do not think or feel the same ever again. It doesn’t mean who don’t outwardly behave the same, generally to others, but it’s always there in the back of your head and can be brought out again under the right circumstances making it feel like the original trauma. You see that when Picard is back on a Borg cube and sees all the Borg. He definitely has PTSD and I actually like how they handled it. Hugh was able to understand what he was going through and comfort him in a way that helped because he knew exactly how it feels.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Trauma changes a person, you do not think or feel the same ever again. It doesn’t mean who don’t outwardly behave the same, generally to others, but it’s always there in the back of your head and can be brought out again under the right circumstances making it feel like the original trauma. You see that when Picard is back on a Borg cube and sees all the Borg. He definitely has PTSD and I actually like how they handled it. Hugh was able to understand what he was going through and comfort him in a way that helped because he knew exactly how it feels.

Yes. Trauma is a big component of what Exborg are going through. But i wonder if that's not the only thing or if there an additional thing that feeds it.

Maybe the brainchemistry changed so much, because of assimilation that the perception of the self, the body and the immediate environment is different to that of people who were never part of the collective.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Yes. Trauma is a big component of what Exborg are going through. But i wonder if that's not the only thing or if there an additional thing that feeds it.

Maybe the brainchemistry changed so much, because of assimilation that the perception of the self, the body and the immediate environment is different to that of people who were never part of the collective.

Trauma actually changes your brain chemistry. I think you’re on the right path, but being assimilated is that trauma. For some it goes on for a long time, Picard had a shorter experience but that doesn’t diminish it. It’s just like real life trauma, some people are in their traumatic experience for years. They just tend to take longer to recover enough to function. Seven’s growth on Voyager could be seen as the beginning of her recovering. She gradually finds her own personality, her emotions become less suppressed and she develops relationships with the crew. By the time of Picard she seems like a different person. The xBs are at the beginning of their recovery and unlike Seven or Picard had a support group of people growing through the same experience and they can open up to. There is an understanding that’s shared between people with similar experiences. You can open yourself up to them more, even when you don’t really know them, far more than you can with people who haven’t gone through that experience. You really see that with all the xBs, especially Picard, Seven and Hugh. Hugh in particular who is trying to help others like him. I’d love to see Seven take up his goal and try to help any remaining Borg. She clearly cares for them.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Trauma actually changes your brain chemistry. I think you’re on the right path, but being assimilated is that trauma. For some it goes on for a long time, Picard had a shorter experience but that doesn’t diminish it. It’s just like real life trauma, some people are in their traumatic experience for years. They just tend to take longer to recover enough to function. Seven’s growth on Voyager could be seen as the beginning of her recovering. She gradually finds her own personality, her emotions become less suppressed and she develops relationships with the crew. By the time of Picard she seems like a different person. The xBs are at the beginning of their recovery and unlike Seven or Picard had a support group of people growing through the same experience and they can open up to. There is an understanding that’s shared between people with similar experiences. You can open yourself up to them more, even when you don’t really know them, far more than you can with people who haven’t gone through that experience. You really see that with all the xBs, especially Picard, Seven and Hugh. Hugh in particular who is trying to help others like him. I’d love to see Seven take up his goal and try to help any remaining Borg. She clearly cares for them.

Yeah i see it the same way as you.

But i wonder if, beside the trauma issue, the changes in the body caused by nanoprobes and implants, caused additional differences in the perception of themselves and the world?

Something that is directly caused by the assimilation and being part of the collective.

 

[ITDUDE]

It's not trauma (or not just trauma). It's the memories of being in a collective. You're not you when you are assimilated. When they were freed they retained the memories of the collective. If as they say, we are the sum total of our experiences, who are we, if we not only have our experiences but experiences of countless thousands. Human, yes, completely human, maybe not.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Yeah i see it the same way as you.

But i wonder if, beside the trauma issue, the changes in the body caused by nanoprobes and implants, caused additional differences in the perception of themselves and the world?

Something that is directly caused by the assimilation and being part of the collective.

I don't think it's a physical difference, it's more that people who haven't been assimilated can't see things the way they have because of the experience of being a Borg. Some people have a fundamental different view of the world from the majority of the population. In my case, I'm trans and have a very different experience of how I interact with my body and how society in general views gender and bodies. A cis person cannot understand how that actually feels and I cannot understand how they feel. I imagine that people in other groups are similar in that regard. For xBs, they know what it's like to have their individual personality dissolved into a hive mind. With the exception of people with different mental states or while doing powerful hallucinogens , most of us have never experienced any change in our connection to ourselves. We don't really question whether we really are who we assume we are, xBs have that and I imagine can't really be sure if they are who they used to be.

 

[fireproof78]

We don't really question whether we really are who we assume we are

You may not but some days are very much like that for me. And a lot of teens I work with too.

I don't see it necessarily as a hive mind but I get existential in terms of my struggles with feelings and emotions. Which, you know, is always fun.

 

[Awesome Possum]

You may not but some days are very much like that for me. And a lot of teens I work with too.

I don't see it necessarily as a hive mind but I get existential in terms of my struggles with feelings and emotions. Which, you know, is always fun.

We all have self doubt and certain experiences can give us even more to question about ourselves. I have thought a lot about how much of my life is based on who I really am and how much is due to me pretending to be someone I wasn't. But it isn't a total loss of identity, except for maybe the people who experience severe brain injuries. We can all identify with Picard's experience because most of us have experienced something that others can't understand. But from his POV, most people haven't really been through his exact experience. It's like a combination of mental rape, mutilation, slavery, forced acts of violence, kidnapping, and death.

 

[Qonundrum]

"xB"'s and "exborg"... So here's something not talked about often: What do they call people in real life who've been abused and assaulted into or for a cult - or repeated sexual molestation or other relevant parallels. What hispter slang is "cool" for describing them in such a cavalier throwaway manner? Just curious.

Signed, one of them who happened to be on the receiving end who thinks this hipster crap trivializes everything... that or I've not "reclaimed muh humanitee" yet, pardon the sardonic nature as some of us survivors do use humor to mask, among other things... and there are other parallels I'd love to bring up but won't, even if they're in the same theme...

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Often, ostracized minorities adopt the "othering" designation assigned to them by the majority. To "own" it, to give the term ess power over them. I assume that's what happened with the XB term.

Anyway, as they themselves are using it, I see no reason to be offended in their place. In fact, if this was a real group of people, I'd find it rather patronizing.

 

[fireproof78]

We all have self doubt and certain experiences can give us even more to question about ourselves. I have thought a lot about how much of my life is based on who I really am and how much is due to me pretending to be someone I wasn't. But it isn't a total loss of identity, except for maybe the people who experience severe brain injuries. We can all identify with Picard's experience because most of us have experienced something that others can't understand. But from his POV, most people haven't really been through his exact experience. It's like a combination of mental rape, mutilation, slavery, forced acts of violence, kidnapping, and death.

Well, I certainly would not expect my experience to be like Picard. However, having an existential crisis (is this my hand, my body, my experience? Am I remembering correctly?) is probably one of the freakiest things I have ever experienced.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Often, ostracized minorities adopt the "othering" designation assigned to them by the majority. To "own" it, to give the term ess power over them. I assume that's what happened with the XB term.

Anyway, as they themselves are using it, I see no reason to be offended in their place. In fact, if this was a real group of people, I'd find it rather patronizing.

It’s taking something that used to be used to shame you and making it a point of pride and something to celebrate. Once it becomes that it can no longer be used to shame you.