How did you get past NuKirk's rise to command?
- Thread starter HigHurtenflurst
- Start date
Yeah, I know, but it's still the best explanation I have, and I like to make excuses for things that don't really add up all that well.
The Mayflower may be a production error, as many of the BTS info I read was that the ship was supposed to be part of the task force sent from Starfleet Command. Dialog changes may have happened but not FX or model work.
I don't think Vulcan would have defensive ships, or any strong enough to counter the Narada. I mean, even in TOS the Vulcans serve on Starfleet vessels, and do not have have vessels of their own, so any ships defending Vulcan would likely be Starfleet.
I would have to rewatch the film, but I thought the drill was already drilling when Amanda sees it, and is more of an establishing shot to show what is happening rather than a timeline of the attack. I would imagine that any start of the drill would interfere with communications and cause large scale seismic activity.
Kirk patrols the "space lanes". If he's involved with criminals they are usually in space aboard stolen craft,a hazard to navigation, involved in smuggling or practicing piracy. The sort of duties ships in the Navy or Coast Guard perform at sea. Those are part of Kirk's every day duties. Discovering if Anton Karidian was Kodos not really his purview. Hes doing it because he was on Tarsus IV and because his friend was killed. Its personal.
How many active duty Naval officers commanding ships at sea moonlight as Nazi hunters? The more famous Nazi hunters were civilians or Israeli military/intelligence operatives.
Kirk is not special forces. He's ship's commander.
Well, I think Christopher pointed out (apologies for misremembering) that the ship's commander idea was as much inspired by wind powered Navy, versus the more modern Navy, where a ship's commander was granted a greater degree of latitude in terms of his power and discretion.
I think Kirk was within his duties to investigate a murder that occurred on Federation territory because there is no other force to do it. What other power in the Federation has been shown to be responsible for apprehension of criminals?
We've saw very little of civilian life in the UFP in TOS since the show was focused on Starfleet and a large portion of the episodes take place outside the Federation. Though it's not a stretch to imagine that several levels of Law Enforcement exist in the Federation. Local planetary LEOs and National LEOs as well. IIRC correctly we saw "local" cops in "The Cloud Minders" and prosecutors in "A Wolf In the Fold". Ardana and Argelius are UFP members. In the SFS we meet a member of Federation Security, no doubt a LEO on the level of the FBI. Scotty's trial in "A Wold In the Fold" is the only civilian trial I recall in TOS. Kirk and Spock's trials were military affairs.
...Thus, having the Mayflower in orbit would certainly fit the pattern.
We have heard of ships defending Vulcan, in TNG "Unification" at least. But we haven't seen such ships. The last time we did, these were indigenous, but that was in ENT, before the formation of a military alliance let alone the UFP and its supposedly joint Starfleet. Having the Mayflower in orbit or nearby would be fine, and if she were a local defender rather than a random passerby, she may even have had an all-Vulcan crew. But Earth doesn't seem to be defended by "dedicated", "local" ships in any of the episodes or movies, so a random defender from the deep ranks of Starfleet sounds more likely.
One wonders whether Nero once again kidnapped and interrogated somebody in order to suppress Vulcan's defenses, ships or other. Sounds rather likely to me.
It's decidedly an "establishing shot", but it's also clear that Amanda rushes to the balcony in utter surprise. Was she taking a nap until that point? It's a bit unlikely that she arrived at the location recently, because the drill jams transporters and somehow Nero is keeping any vehicles from approaching and damaging the drill.
I would imagine the drill could be started without actually drilling into anything, which would give Nero a powerful jammer and a chance to wage information warfare; the actual drilling-into-rock would be necessary to create seismic effects.
The Narada may look menacing, but her defining characteristics would seem to make her useless in warfare. Two spacecraft ram into her, both with cripping results, and she's helpless to do anything about it. Her "missiles" pierce 23rd century combat shields, but can easily be shot down, something a decent photon torpedo never has to suffer from. Her shields can't stop transporters even when raised (dialogue in the final fight establishes when the shields finally drop). She's slow as molasses, the wounded Enterprise easily outflying her. And her drill is vulnerable to mere sidearms, and easy prey for the guns of a very small spacecraft.
All this is consistent with her being a civilian mining platform. Take an oil rig from the late 20th century and send her against a fleet of pre-WWI war steamers, and you get pretty much the same results, assuming the rig also sports a tactical nuke or three confiscated from a late 20th century courier who also gets stranded in the past. The rig can destroy a formation of ships from an ambush, and withstand the peashooter fire of the pre-dreadnoughts rather indefinitely (there being few if any "critical parts" to her excessive structure), but a fight against an individual, prepared warship will end very poorly for the rig.
Timo Saloniemi
I don't think that any of that precludes a Starfleet Officer from conducting an investigation, especially with the resources available to them that would not be available to local law enforcement officers.
Again, TOS Starfleet is not a one-to-one of the modern Navy. Kirk seemed to have rather broad discretionary power, and would only have to give his rational to the Admiralty when he went to a Starbase, such as with Finney in "Court Martial."
I think in "Conscious of the King" is was more personal, but Kirk would have federal authority to investigate a crime committed by a Federation official.
I'm pretty sure Kirk knew he was pushing his discretionary powers pass the limit:
The Conscience of the King said:
A Starfleet officer might, but not the CO of a Starship. In Greg Cox's sequel to "Conscious of the King" Kirk turns over a murder investigation to Chekov, who's Chief of Security.
Are you saying that a organization who's purpose is to investigate crime is less equipped to investigate crime than an organization who's job is exploration and defense? Now if we're talking about the Federation equivalent of Mayberry, NC or Cicely, Alaska they might. But the UFP also has planets that are the New Yorks and Londons of the Galaxy.
Finney was an officer aboard the Enterprise who died. Kirk is responsible for every officer and crewman and for everything that happens on his ship. If the computer log hadn't conflicted with Kirk's own account, he would have been on his way after the ship was repaired. Like he was every other time a crewman died. It was a Starfleet matter, Kodos not so much.
He's pushed the limits definitely. More so about the 'urgent medical supplies' delay than mucking about with the players schedule. Once they're aboard his ship, they are subject to the Captain's rule within certain limits of course.
Starfleet are also known to bend the rules. In "Court Martial" they were prepared to let Kirk off a murder charge if he went quietly
I think you have "The Conscience of the King" confused with "Obsession". There is nothing that I can remember about medical supplies in the former.
Sorry - It was going eight light years off their course. This was Spock's main concern until he dug into Karidian's background. Then naturally his concern changed to Kirk's safety.
Anyway once Riley was attacked and the phaser set to explode, the matter became Kirk's concern as a Starfleet Captain.
The only dodgy thing that could be assigned to Kirk was the stranding of the players. I really doubt that's a major offense even if the other Captain would testify against him.
I even think Kirk would get away with that if he said to Starfleet he thought there was a killer amongst the players and he thought they were going to get away with it.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
There was no need to "get past" anything.
In TOS, Starfleet always struck me as the best equipped organization, period. They had access to the library computers and data that frontier colonies may not have access to. While they may not have full legal authority, they would have abilities to do research and data collecting, even from orbit that colonial police would not have. In my opinion, Kodos was a Federation official, as a colonial administrator, so he may still fall under the discretion of Starfleet for at least being detained and investigated.
My main point is that out on the frontier, ship's COs have broad discretionary powers. Also, Starfleet has greater resources to pull from to aid in investigations. I think that Starfleet, especially in TOS, would be the best bet to provide support, especially if colonial governments request it.
Also, in TOS (on TV), Chekov was not the Security Chief. He didn't get to "put on the red shirt" yet
Without bothering to wade through the thread, has anyone pointed out this little tidbit from ID?
PIKE: I gave you my ship because I saw greatness in you.
PIKE: I gave you my ship because I saw greatness in you.
