Meh, Kirk was always a pretty implausible captain.
How did you get past NuKirk's rise to command?
- Thread starter HigHurtenflurst
- Start date
Meh, Kirk was always a pretty implausible captain.
Good point. Given that we're only getting a new Trek movie every few years or so, do we really want to waste time getting to Captain Kirk?
Suppose Batman Begins had ended with Bruce Wayne not quite Batman yet? Or Casino Royale had ended with Bond still a junior agent who had yet to attain Double-Oh status?
Ah, but "Casino Royale" did it so well with introducing the badass Daniel Craig and fleshing out the character by showing and telling. By the time he received that 00 status, we knew how this guy operated, and we had a very cool movie with a cool story-line.
I'm still rubbing my head over the 2009 plot-hole on Kirk's meteoric rise to the captaincy.
Even with "Batman Begins" we had Bruce Wayne trying his darnedest to get things together on his own before he turned to other 'underground' methods to get Gotham city back on track. And, by the time he became Batman, we knew it was due to him feeling there were no other choices or methods to battle the chaotic crime.
With the 2009 "Star Trek" film? Well, the script says cadet Kirk is suddenly captain....just because.
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Yeah, I'm probably using 'plot hole' incorrectly here....
But, we are on the same wavelength that it - Kirk's meteoric rise - was definitely due to poor writing.
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Eh, I find it improbable, but not outside the realm of possibility, at least to me.
I guess it comes down how to regard Starfleet and the way it is organized. For Kirk, everything seemed to fall in place, as he was able to be field promoted, and receive high marks and recognition for dealing with a rather unpredictable crisis. Top it off with the loss of 6 other ships and their crews, including senior officers, things seem to fall in place.
A stretch? Sure, but I can live with it. I also can imagine several other scenarios in which it could have been done better. That's what my imagination is for
I guess it comes down how to regard Starfleet and the way it is organized. For Kirk, everything seemed to fall in place, as he was able to be field promoted, and receive high marks and recognition for dealing with a rather unpredictable crisis. Top it off with the loss of 6 other ships and their crews, including senior officers, things seem to fall in place.
A stretch? Sure, but I can live with it. I also can imagine several other scenarios in which it could have been done better. That's what my imagination is for
It should be remembered that "nepotism" of some sort is how Starfleet has always operated. In TOS, it was stated a couple of times that sponsorship by a serving officer was important in getting Kirk or some other hopeful into Starfleet in the first place; STXI showed Starfleet happening to Kirk thanks to Pike, ST:ID told this had happened to Pike thanks to Marcus.
How could it not follow that the mentors or godfathers of the young officers would favor and favoritize their proteges? It would look pretty bad on the seniors if the juniors didn't live up to their supposed potential.
Timo Saloniemi
How could it not follow that the mentors or godfathers of the young officers would favor and favoritize their proteges? It would look pretty bad on the seniors if the juniors didn't live up to their supposed potential.
Timo Saloniemi
And Nog got in thanks to a referral by Sisko.
I think part of the problem is that they were trying to balance their desire to do an origin trilogy with the pressure to tell a complete self-contained story in one movie (just in case there weren't sequels). Maybe if they'd known in advance that they'd get at least three movies, they would've been willing to end the first movie with Pike taking back command of the Enterprise with Kirk as his first officer and saying "I know you'll make a great captain someday," maybe with a bit of foreshadowing from Spock Prime to reinforce that idea. Then the second movie could've opened with Kirk defying Captain Pike's orders on Nibiru (that would have to be restructured somewhat) and getting busted for it, and then when Pike was killed, Kirk would've taken command again, and the movie would've ended with him finally being appointed official captain of the Enterprise.
But at least that was a specific plot point: Nog, being from a world (Ferenginar) that is not a Federation member, required a referral from a command-level officer in order to make the Academy. Which makes sense, really. Sisko knows Nog better than anyone in Starfleet.
Not too mention, Nog was going to be the first Ferengi in Starfleet. And, I believe, it was known that Nog may have some resistence from those in Starfleet due to the reputation of the Ferengi.
As I recall, Nog was determined to pay Sisko real money for it, not as a bribe, but as the Ferengi equivalent of paying for apprenticeship training, as was required in many of the various guilds centuries ago in our own RL history.
As I recall, though there was also some business in "Obsession" about a senior officer helping Kirk get into the Academy, and now that officer's son is serving under Kirk . . ..
(I can't remember the names offhand and am too lazy to look them up!)
I think you're mixing up Ensign Garrovick from "Obsession" -- the son of Lt. Kirk's captain on the Farragut -- with redshirt Mallory from "The Apple," whose father helped Kirk get into the Academy.
The issue for me is more that Kirk's command decisions in the first movie are pretty terrible. Spock does all the hard work and Kirk skates by on charm.
Not that Spock's decisions were much better. Limping the Enterprise to the fleet at low warp is a terrible, terrible idea, just not as terrible as going after Nero.
Wasting an escape pod, which you may need considering the upcoming fight instead of beaming him to the brig on the planet. Terrible.
The right idea is to WARN people. You warn the Earth that their defence codes are compromised. You warn the fleet and tell them to get back here fast. If your comms are down, you fly to the nearest relay. If the fleet is out of comms range, or on silent manoeuvres, you communicate with the nearest outpost and THEY fly to the fleet, saving days if not weeks.
Beaming a single crewman onto the enemy ship. Terrible idea. Beaming two crewmen onto the enemy ship. Less terrible but still terrible.
Not exciting enough? Well, that really depends on how you tell the story. Neither Kirk nor Spock deserved promotion. Bravery awards or commendations, certainly, but neither of them showed particularly good leadership qualities.
And Kirk's leadership qualities didn't really shine in the second movie either, even if he is starting to mature. Troi failed her command test by doing exactly what Kirk did. Kirk is as good a command officer as Troi. Yikes.
Not that Spock's decisions were much better. Limping the Enterprise to the fleet at low warp is a terrible, terrible idea, just not as terrible as going after Nero.
Wasting an escape pod, which you may need considering the upcoming fight instead of beaming him to the brig on the planet. Terrible.
The right idea is to WARN people. You warn the Earth that their defence codes are compromised. You warn the fleet and tell them to get back here fast. If your comms are down, you fly to the nearest relay. If the fleet is out of comms range, or on silent manoeuvres, you communicate with the nearest outpost and THEY fly to the fleet, saving days if not weeks.
Beaming a single crewman onto the enemy ship. Terrible idea. Beaming two crewmen onto the enemy ship. Less terrible but still terrible.
Not exciting enough? Well, that really depends on how you tell the story. Neither Kirk nor Spock deserved promotion. Bravery awards or commendations, certainly, but neither of them showed particularly good leadership qualities.
And Kirk's leadership qualities didn't really shine in the second movie either, even if he is starting to mature. Troi failed her command test by doing exactly what Kirk did. Kirk is as good a command officer as Troi. Yikes.
If Kirk and Spock hadn't beamed aboard the enemy ship then there wouldn't have been anyone around to give out bravery awards or captaincies. Everyone on Earth would have been dead.
But I agree Kirk's captaincy has a lot to do with nepotism and luck:
McCoy basically smuggled him aboard the Enterprise.Nepotism.
He overheard Uhura's conversation about the lightening storm in space while hiding under a bedL. Luck.
Pike makes Kirk first officer.Nepotism.
Kirk meets old Spock who tells him how to defeat new Spock.Nepotism.
Nero does not destroy the Enterprise because he has another Spock to punish.Luck
Everything he did after getting on Nero's ship though has to do with Kirk's skills as a Starfleet Officer and future Captain.
I would agree. I think Kirk has good leadership qualities, even if the choices he made could be questioned, but that could happen in a lot of other films too.
I think the way it could have been better to show Kirk making more leadership type decisions, more time at the academy indicating his leadership qualities, but being held back by his tendency to be impulsive and head strong, to the point of insubordination.
I also recall a suggestion from a reviewer of having the last couple of scenes become a montage of commendation after commendation for Kirk, changing uniforms and moving up the organization until the last time and he steps on to the Bridge.
More of a time lapse would also help, I think. I just don't think that Kirk did nothing meriting his promotion to captain. Certainly not a movie breaker
...Exactly. Why do people wonder that Starfleet admirals (or captains who are not named Kirk, Sisko or Picard, and yes, I do remember there are other spinoff shows out there) are such a thoroughly rotten basket of apples?
In STXI, Kirk does very little, and Spock saves the Earth, and both make do with fairly idiotic decisions. But both have an excuse for the latter: Kirk is young and stupid and has been injected with nasty stuff by McCoy, and Spock is crazy with grief. No problem with that, characterwise or plotwise.
And actually both also have an excuse for the former: they are in the right place at the right time, in the right ship. Pike gets them there. From that point on, they are on their own, and initially do just as badly as expected. But Nero is a pushover for an adversary, not even a proper military man in a warship but a miner with simplistic ideas about tactics and none about strategies.
The big conceit in the movie is that somehow Earth has been rendered utterly defenseless, even if defeating Nero's drill only takes a midget spacecraft with feeble weapons as demonstrated. Once we accept this, then the arrival of any set of heroes would ensure a happy ending, and our heroes aren't too stupid or crazy to fit the part. That they live through their heroics is attributable almost solely to the new type of transporter provided by Spock Prime; Earth would be safe even in a different scenario where the young and foolish heroes lacked that device and did not survive.
And it's not that big a conceit, as we learn time and again that Nero captures and tortures key personnel for important codes. A lot could be done against Earth with the information gleaned from Pike. Probably the secret codes couldn't indefinitely keep some hero on Earth from arming a tiny air vehicle with light weaponry and destroying the drill, but Spock gets there first, which is fine and well.
Perhaps it's not as satisfactory as having our heroes actually contribute something exceptional and worthy of the promotions they get (or Kirk gets, at any rate). But it's actually more logical.
Timo Saloniemi
In STXI, Kirk does very little, and Spock saves the Earth, and both make do with fairly idiotic decisions. But both have an excuse for the latter: Kirk is young and stupid and has been injected with nasty stuff by McCoy, and Spock is crazy with grief. No problem with that, characterwise or plotwise.
And actually both also have an excuse for the former: they are in the right place at the right time, in the right ship. Pike gets them there. From that point on, they are on their own, and initially do just as badly as expected. But Nero is a pushover for an adversary, not even a proper military man in a warship but a miner with simplistic ideas about tactics and none about strategies.
The big conceit in the movie is that somehow Earth has been rendered utterly defenseless, even if defeating Nero's drill only takes a midget spacecraft with feeble weapons as demonstrated. Once we accept this, then the arrival of any set of heroes would ensure a happy ending, and our heroes aren't too stupid or crazy to fit the part. That they live through their heroics is attributable almost solely to the new type of transporter provided by Spock Prime; Earth would be safe even in a different scenario where the young and foolish heroes lacked that device and did not survive.
And it's not that big a conceit, as we learn time and again that Nero captures and tortures key personnel for important codes. A lot could be done against Earth with the information gleaned from Pike. Probably the secret codes couldn't indefinitely keep some hero on Earth from arming a tiny air vehicle with light weaponry and destroying the drill, but Spock gets there first, which is fine and well.
Perhaps it's not as satisfactory as having our heroes actually contribute something exceptional and worthy of the promotions they get (or Kirk gets, at any rate). But it's actually more logical.
Timo Saloniemi
